I had not really interacted with Elostian before Hallifax, but if I had no clue of who he was and how his stance had been on organisations before this, I would say that he is completely "Hallifaxian".

The drain only gets that high if they're high ranked members of an order. I'm not really going to defend/refute arguments here, I'm just trying to clarify points of possible misinformation/misunderstanding is all!

No. As I said, he is pro-Magnagoran, but he has -always- taken and -encouraged- us to seek out players from other organisations. We're not saying he is neutral, but he has always had appeal outside Magnagora. He was just an example many of us used because that's the order that will be most affected on our side!

One more thing, I sort of have to question the timing of it as well. As it stands right now, Elo-bear only represents half of what Hallifax is. He is the science of a society that worships science and art. Joining, for example, Isune's order to accommodate the artsy-fartsy types.

It doesn't look like this is negotiable, but as long as it's here to stay I think that current avatars who are affected by its penalties should be given the option of renouncing their avatar status and fully refunding the essence cost to their god. As Ixchilgal brought up, they had no way of knowing something like this would happen when they became avatars and it's put them in a situation with no acceptable way out.

Wait, so I should be punished some more because Estarra is too short sighted to consider the consequences of her asinine system changes? Veryzhul, too?

Everyone who's bothered to try and work to get somewhere in their order, do what they've been told they should be doing should now be screwed over because...oh wait. I haven't heard -one- good reason.

There was absolutely zero need for this mechanical change, and it doesn't support anything that's ever been indicated anywhere in the game. "The orders were always meant to support their cities/communes!" Well...where does it say that? Raezon's always encouraged the order to expand beyond Magnagora. I know other gods did, too. There has -never- been any hint that orders should be confined to their city. This is a terrible last minute excuse to try and justify a god awful decision.

And really, while I never saw I need for the change, I didn't -care- about the increased loss from death, and possible lowered offerings. I didn't care that I wouldn't be able to use karma to use order powers. Hell, I was telling other people to suck it up, it's not that bad. But passive drain? -Any- passive drain is a terrible idea, but especially drain of this magnitude.

Several people are being forced to either give up a significant part of their RP...or waste several hundred credits. And then Estarra wonders why the player base is low, and people don't vote.

Gee, could it have anything to do with stupid crap like this? Anything at all?

No. It must be gypsies. Those bastards.

Has anyone documented the % difference in offerings yet? My person that I usually check contributions with is... indisposed for a bit, and I can't see listofferings. Because while 100,000 might not be a big deal when your offerings are worth full value, if the ding for them being worth less is large (Like some of these other numbers are) it might very well take A LOT more effort.

Edit: Anyway, I'm off for the weekend because it's, you know, Valentine's Day. So we'll see on Monday if I come back to being kicked out of my order or demoted to OR1 in addition to having missed the final event. Yay!!

I've not noticed any differences in offerings, positive or negative, according to the summary of listofferings.

Doesn't change that this is a ridiculous idea of terribad in line with Xion Zemordia and the Raziela events. It should be deleted and filed under discontinuity posthaste. One of Isune's two mortal orderheads is Serenwilder. It's been that for a long time because Isune, when she was around, did not align herself primarily with one city. Of everyone in her middle circle (she has none in her inner circle) a number that counts nine, only three are Celestian.

So really. "Thanks" for screwing over my order.

Look under listofferings distance.

I meant in things offered. A bottle from a distance member still is as much essence as a bottle from a city member.

That would be a bug, and will be fixed shortly.

Regarding not voting- Though that's something I did myself for a bit, its filed under "futile gesture that gives a smidge of emotional satisfaction without actually addressing the wound".

Ixchilgal's case represents an extreme, but its not so much an outlier as it should be.

My concerns with this idea are on more of a macro level. Affinity seems directed at taking an active hand in resolving the contingents that have installed themselves in the new organizations. If the administration sees these contingents as an issue, that is one thing, but as a practical matter we have to look at the nature of both new organizations. That is, they are largely leaning on these contingents (which are composed of established, longer standing characters) because the balance of their organizations are made up of, for the most part, alternate/new characters.

Taking this sort of stance expediates the process of making orgs their own entities, but I'm confident that this would happen naturally over time. At worst, the Affinity changes could be rather destructive to already fragile organizations. On a further macro level, Affinity is another element that could easily act to impede Lusternia's already grossly lopsided, arguably detrimental, organizational power distributions, simply by creating further incentives for established characters to never move, ever.

This is something I feel strongly would have been better addressed with a gentle hand. Providing positive incentives rather than penalities, and definitely, definitely waiting until the new orgs at least have their base three guilds in place and aren't in this state of perpetual limbo. At the moment, it feels like pulling the scaffolding away before the supports are in place.

Okay, so I had a suggestion on the positive side of Affinity: Creating a skill (we could call it Religion for right now) that you can only SKILLCHOICE SELECT if you are in an order and in the same org as your Patron. The skill could work like a mini-skill that only requires half the lessons to get to transcendent or an actual full skill if someone can think of enough abilities for it. If the admin think it is a good idea, the level of learning in the skill could also be affected by Order Rank. If you quit the Patron's home org or the order, you would lose access to all of the skills but if you joined a new order/rejoined the city or order, you would still keep the same amount of lessons you had used in the skill before (and the upper level abilities you already had before would reopen as you progressed in order rank). Some of the skills I'm suggesting are RP/utility and others have slight combat effects, but if we really are looking to tie orders more closely to cities, I think with the small magnitude of the combat effects, it wouldn't force people to "have" to join an order for combat.

Here are some sample abilities the skillset could have (not in any particular order). Please suggest more skills/changes to the ones suggested/power costs or anything really.

Religion - HolyWord
Syntax: INFLUENCE WITH HOLYWORD
Ego Battle: Divine
As a follower of your Patron, it is your duty to convert others to the path of your God. Denizens influenced in this manner provide a small amount of essence to your Patron through their devotions

Religion - HolyWrit
Syntax: INFLUENCE WITH HOLYWRIT
Ego Battle: Divine
As you have become more experienced with the teachings of your Patron, you now have the force of the Holy Writ to back up your Holy Words.

Religion - HolyPresence
Syntax: INFLUENCE WITH HOLYPRESENCE
Ego Battle: Divine
You exemplify the teachings of your Patron and your very actions and words guide others to the path of your God.

Religion - TemplePath
Syntax: TELEPORT TEMPLE
Through your connection to your Patron, you may now teleport directly before His or Her temple so that you may serve quickly when you are called. (Same or greater time than it takes to TELEPORT NEXUS)

Religion - Liturgy
Syntax: PRAY FOR LITURGY
As a follower of your Patron, it is your duty to inspire others with the teachings of your God. Fellow citizens/commune members who hear your liturgy will gain a small blessing for their devotions for a short duration (small health blessing for 1-5 minutes depending on rank in religion? or +1 weighted to a stat favoured by the patron: INT for Elostian, STR for Fain, CHA for Eventru, etc?).

Religion - DivineMantle
Syntax: PRAY FOR MANTLE
Through your close connection to your Patron, they may grant you a marking to show all that you are of Their following when they see you. Maintaining the connection with Your Patron required for the mantle will require a constant use of your willpower/mana(?). (Custom QL message based on order- "Arel is here, surrounded by a mantle of twilight.")

Religion - DivineRelic
Syntax: PRAY FOR DIVINERELIC
The rituals of the Order sometimes call for the relics of the Chosen. The relic will require willpower to be called forth and it will only remain for a short time before it returns to your Patron. (Creates an item specific to the order, decays after an RL day or less. Patrons could spend essence to create multiple relics.)

Religion - Crusade
Syntax: SQUAD CRUSADE
Your Patron looks kindly upon those followers who join together to hunt for offerings. A Crusade will provide all members with increased experience gain above a normal squad. Crusades can only be formed from a squad composed only of order members within the Patron's Affinity. (This ability could also generate a small amount of essence for the divine similar to how a formation generates power for a city nexus. Not sure what you guys think of that).

Religion - RealmWalker
Those who walk the realm of their Patron regain their willpower more quickly. (Passive ability. Small willpower regen in the godrealm that would be less than what a willpower manse room would do.)

Religion - Dreaming
Your Patron is always present in your life, even within your very dreams. (Could be the very first ability. Divine could create a custom dream that players with this skill could get. Divines could spend essence to add more dreams; similar to city/commune-specific dreams).

Religion - Cabal
Syntax: PRAY FOR CABAL
PRAY FOR CABAL UNION WITH
PRAY FOR CABAL EYES/EARS WITH
PRAY FOR CABAL DISSOLUTION
Power: 2* (to form a Cabal); 10 (for Union)
Either out of close kinship or distrust, you may form a cabal of Order members within your Patron's Affinity. After an ordermate has been initiated into your Cabal, you may look through their eyes or hear what is said in their location, though focusing on hearing through the ears of your cabal member has a severe drain on your willpower and mana. Maintaining the close connection of a cabal is a heavy continuous drain on willpower, and this drain increased with the number of members in the cabal. You may also perform the Rite of Union with a member of your cabal, traveling to them from any plane (only works on known planes;stopped by monos/other magical transport limitations). You may also dissolve your entire cabal at once or the connection with each member individually. Should a connection within your cabal dissolve unexpectedly through death or the loss of willpower, the backlash of energies will cause you physical harm.
*The power cost doubles for each successive member that is initiated into your cabal (2 for the first person, 4 for the second, 8 for the third).

Posting for people who have been forum/postbanned isn't allowed. I've removed a post of such. Out of the mercy of my little black forum-mod heart I'm not upping warn levels (because it would require an perma-ban, and I'm in a mood of good cheer).

I'm don't feel like nit-picking the suggested skills but this is the way to go. Make it worth it to be a part of a org that a god is in. Don't punish people for not being in the same org. Estarra might be missing this but those being effected feel punished. Punishing players=bad, bad, bad, and more bad.

Dunno about the other Orders, but Maylea has dreams you get if you're a part of the Order already.

Ooh. I hadn't heard this, but it's a really cool little side benefit.

And Eventru's heart grew three sizes that day...

I really, really like this idea. As far as I'm concerned it would make good ingame sense as well. While I'm sure it's not really needed at this point, I stand against Affinity as well. My reasons appear, however, to be counter to what the over all goal appears to be. Suffice to say, people that I talked to that I had convinced to start on the path of joining the order no longer want to, for reason of not wanting to be a burden. I just, as a rule, do not really understand how you can say that a God represents a particular ideal, but then limit them to a city. I'll use Rezon and elostian as an example: both represent what could be called the Scholarly realm of divinities. Now when you have a new player in say, Serenwilde, who has decided to make their character into a scholar, they are immediately going to gravitate to one of these two. However, they are immediately going to notice both exist outside of their choice of commune. He has chosen Serenwilde because it closely fits what he wants his character to be, but the other half of what his character is is in another city. Now with this system, it is made his chosen role play very difficult to carry out.

I as a rule do not understand why the heck ANYONE would want a certain city to have a monopoly on a higher concept. Hallifax and Magnora are the only cities that can have an order of scholars? It's like you have tried to personify each city onto a certain role. I mean, I understand that Glomdoring is not exactly compatible with Maylea, and in game RP will dictate, but the people who have truly suffered here are the Scholars. That is always a trans city roleplay, and you have made it horribly difficult to follow such a role play unless you're in said city without making them feel sub-grade. That, or you have forced gods who want to roleplay open and welcoming beings into stringy essence misers.

Thus, it brings us full circle to the idea of positive enforcement. Basic psychology courses will show you this is ALWAYS the better route to take. Offering people a twinkie will work better then punching them. Every. Single. Time.

Look at when you have a person who owns a PS3 and an Xbox. I have seen said people purchase a game for the Xbox, even when they have the PS3 version right there, better graphics and all, simply because they would miss out on achievements for the Xbox. That is positive reinforcement at it's core. You tell people that, "Hey, you want to join His order from outside the city, go ahead. But we can use this skill to cloak ourselves in these awesome god robes that nobody else can get." THEN you will have people coming over. When people feel as if they are missing something, they will come. People need to feel like they get something good out of joining. At this point, you've taken a step backward to most players. Perhaps a step forward would help as well. In fact, I could care less if every single thing you got was rp only. This is a perfect place to foster that, and I really don't feel that it gets enough love.

The suggestion that the admin create a new Order-based skill is totally unnecessary. It's also completely ridiculous to expect them to do something like that while they're in the middle of creating guilds for Gaudiguch and Hallifax.

In general, positive reinforcement for this (beyond a very small amount) is a terrible idea because the point of affinity is to drive people away from the extraneous orgs, not to drive the Order to add as many people as they can from their home city so that they can get awesome benefits. Besides, orders already provide more than enough benefits to their members as-is.