It's bad enough that Order/commune/guild enemy lists are all exactly the same for shrine powers and such, this just makes it worse. I'd like Order membership to mean something, at least. Especially for Hallifax and Gaudiguch, who only have one option, and who just showed up after hundreds of years. You character has strong historical RP ties to an Order, but also busted their ass for years to study and quest for the new cities? Too bad, you get your choice of which way to shoot your RP in the face.

You're all having knee jerk reactions, as usual, and I believe they're disproportionate to the magnitude of the changes. I may be wrong, but why not just wait and see how it goes?

I don't think we're reacting to only the changes, but to the philosophy behind them.

Then the only change that needs to be made is that a select few of the Divine are unaffected by affinity, as their ideals span multiple organizations. As it is, most Divine choose to align themselves with an organization by design, and it makes perfect sense to me that this change was made to support that.

Some of them are probably, sure. I think the main feeling from everyone is confusion, though. No one can quite put their finger on the exact purpose of the mechanic and why it's suddenly here now. Normally when new mechanics are introduced, there's a very clear purpose to them. Problem => Options => Solution. You'll almost never get 100% approval of whatever solution you choose, but I think people become a bit less agitated when they're aware that a certain problem exists, and this is how it was decided to be addressed.

I'm fine myself right now. I'll be interested to see how much I end up costing my patron each month, and based off of that, adjust my anger level accordingly. I'd still like to know the why of the situation, though.

What occurs to me is that with the new organizations, there's a large percentage of people in Orders other than the aligned inside of the cities, which may be damaging the ability of the org to stand on its own and may be stifling conflict. But if that's the case, why aren't these orgs pulling a Glomdoring? Where's the RP that we've seen in the Glomdoring with Fainite folks and Eventru's followers? Why aren't the Orders of Kalikai and Elostian, not to mention the outside Orders, coming down on their people and encouraging inquisitions or asking lots of pointed Questions? (to be honest, I thought this was what Fain was doing with his inquisition.)

Granted, that doesn't quite work with Elostian's Order, but if Hallifax is a model Soviet state, i.e. one for the all, as opposed to "yay, individuality", why aren't we seeing Communist-esque thinking encouraged? Send them to the gulags for thought crimes and degenerate religious beliefs!

If there's an honest problem with the organizations and too much ideological pollution/ growth stunting from outside/ non-aligned Orders, why are we making a mechanical change instead of working directly with the existing religious RP of Orders to make things work or having Order-centric events, given that this is nominally a roleplaying game?

There is a plan to make a KGB for Hallifax, then we'll start what needs to be done.

I want to be part of the Ministry of Information.

Except there aren't going to be exceptions. When things like us get hoisted on us it doesn't matter what we want or think. Sure it's their game, but we're paying customers for the most part. But then again, the fine print basically says 'we owe you nothing - not even what you're paying for'. Maybe Estarra will show up and conjure up an explanation for us, or maybe not. Mechanically it's not that big an issue, I'm sure the drain can be compensated for with minimal hunting unless you're an orderhead or something. It's just one more arbitrary thing to deal with.

P.S. Hallifax isn't 'modeled on the Societ union'. Plenty of players have drawn comparisons, but that doesn't mean jack. Just like your speculation about how many people are in what order doesn't mean anything. Keep looking for explanations where there are none *that-eye-rolling-smiley*

I'm more or less neutral about this change, but yea, I feel sorry for more org-neutral orders like Elostian, Isune, etc. I thought one awesome aspect of Elostian's order was that he drew on people from all over the place...

This is probably meant to increase organizational conflict?

I really don't get all the fussing. While the change seems somewhat unnecessary, it's entirely possible that it's a change that'll make sense down the road when coupled with other changes so the magnitude of e-whining seems a bit much for the time being.

It also makes sense rp wise in a way. If you are a follower of a given god, you would naturally gravitate towards the org which of which they are a patron. And really, it's not like Order rp has ever been sterling in regards to outside influence/interaction. Can't tell you the amount of times we've had a Fain "spy" lurking in Glomdoring only to have them quit, send a tell to someone in the commune with the predictable "I have stolen all your secrets for Fain! Hahahahahahaha!!!11!!1!", and scurry back to Magnagora. Hardly the stuff good rp is made of.

.ʇsoɯ ǝɥʇ ɹǝɟɟns oʇ ʎ1ǝʞı1 ǝɹɐ ʎʇıɔ ɹıǝɥʇ oʇ buoɹʇs sɐ ʇou ǝɹɐ sǝıʇ ǝsoɥʍ sɹǝɥʇo puɐ 'ǝunsı 'uɐıʇso1ǝ .ǝʌoqɐ pǝuoıʇuǝɯ sɹǝpɹo ǝɥʇ buıɹoubı ǝɹ,noʎ ʞuıɥʇ ı

Just to comment on this, because I find it an interesting subject.

I think it'd be quite hard for Gaudiguch to come out and say, "You cannot be a member of a b c d e f g h i j k or l orders" - they are the city of freedom, after all. Whereas Hallifax might have an easier time of saying it, I don't see it as an overwhelming Elostian-esque move (I could be wrong though!), and I don't think his order has a lot of political push in Hallifax.

I think, in order for such a movement to occur, it would require the player leadership to rise up - but what if that leadership is completely inundated with said players? What if the entire leadership belongs to a given divine or divines? Both Elostian and Kalikai also have small followings to my knowledge, Kalikai especially, as a new goddess. Whereas Viravain could exude a very authoritarian control over Glomdoring (it was 'her' forest, after all) I can't see, personally, Kalikai being able to do the same in Gaudiguch, or Elostian in Hallifax.

Beyond that, I think orders spread across organizations in great numbers can really harm conflict. Using my own order/situation as an example - even though Eventru can sit and say, "Defend your territories, do your civic duty", I can't really see Veyrzhul, Doman or any of the other order members raiding Celestia were Celest and Hallifax to go to war, or even eagerly defending their own territories against order members. What happens when they're up against their own God's shrines?

While I would love for this all-encompassing order that has members in Serenwilde, Hallifax and Gaudiguch, all holding up these strict, Eventruian ideologies of purity, faith and blind devotion, I can't see it working in such a way that his order members wouldn't try to keep those three orgs from going to war with one another. Which, ICly, is grand in Eventru's eyes (all glory to the Light! Rabble rabble!), I don't think that's healthy for the game. While I would certainly love to tone down and be a bit more all-encompassing, it's not something that, I think, would work very well in Lusternia while maintaining a healthy atmosphere for the usual org dynamics.

Just my opinion!

Initially, maybe. I'd say it puts the burden on the divine to make their order more appealing but whether they do or not, it'll even out over time.

.ǝsoddns ı 'ssǝ1ɹǝpɹo ʎɐʇs oʇ uosɐǝɹ ɹǝɥʇouɐ ʇsnظ '11ǝʍ ɥo .6/1 ʎq doɹp p1noʍ uıoظ oʇ ǝ1qɐ buıǝq ɯǝɥʇ ɟo ǝʇɐɹ ǝɥʇ ǝ1ıɥʍ pǝbuɐɥɔun uıɐɯǝɹ p1noʍ ɯıɥ uı pǝʇsǝɹǝʇuı ǝq p1noʍ oɥʍ sɹɐ1oɥɔs ɟo ǝʇɐɹ ǝɥʇ sɐ xɐɟı11ɐɥ uı ɥɔnɯ ooʇ buıʍoɹb ɹǝpɹo s,uɐıʇso1ǝ buıɹnʇɔıd ʇou ɯ,ı

Then why isn't the pressure coming from the Orders with their members in those cities, such as Fain is doing at the moment? In Fain's Order, for example, Fain's set me to purge the Order of non-Mag people. This kind of sucks, but at the same time, I'd like to think it's a bit more desirable than mechanically forcing it. For that matter, even with freedom-centric mores, there's bound to be a certain amount of suspicion around gods that have obvious goals to kill, conquer, destroy, perform unholy experiments, etc.

Also, freedom is entirely possible to warp to suspicious means. McCarthy, anyone? What are these enemies of freedom doing in Gaudiguch, clearly they're undermining our glorious destiny, etc.

I think that would be hugely interesting, if it was managed successfully. I've always found Joseph McCarthy and the Red Commie scare-wave he rode interesting aspects of the power of fear in a free society to oppress the freedom of others.

When's the last time you had issues with an Isune war shrine?

I'm still annoyed overall that, mechanically, your job as an order member is turning on the shrine powers during a raid. I have no clue how I'd suggest to 'fix' that though, so .

Such things are decidedly not fun for affected players, are never managed well, and result in lasting harm to the orgs after the purges have been made. This is exactly the type of conflict that leads to player apathy which is the death of a group.

I also think the whole "everyone should be in conflict with everyone" mentality is horrible. Lasting peace and alliances can be just as interesting as constantly trying to force conflict. That is a whole different topic though and one that has been beaten to death by now.

Part of the problem is that conflict is what keeps us engaged. This game, the credit market, the investment in organizations, comes from camaraderie with those on a given side, a large amount of emotional value placed on the structures of our side, and the need to grind the other bastards down into the dust. Without conflict, sad to say, there's nothing that keeps a large amount of the game invested. Economically speaking, who's going to buy damage runes and other such nonsense in peacetime?