Ministry Funds

by Unknown

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Xenthos2010-02-24 22:32:13
QUOTE (mitbulls @ Feb 24 2010, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The way it is makes it more difficult for ministers and others to do their jobs.

Let's take a specific example - all I needed was money to purchase some sigils for security. There are only three people in the entire commune who can get that money - the ambassador, the CL, and the trade minister. In other words, those three people are essentially in charge of all of our non-guard security measures. Whoever controls the purse controls everything. You happen to be one of those lucky people who is involved in distributing the money, but doesn't ever have to be on the other side of things where you must go through all of the difficulty to do your job.

You didn't even bother to read what I wrote, did you?

I don't even have the access to withdraw those funds. I have to ask for them myself. That is intentional. I have the ability to move funds to the Ambassador that someone else can then withdraw for me, but I cannot just move things through and take it.

My ability to move funds to those ministries doesn't change that I still have to ask the same people to withdraw it. tongue.gif
Unknown2010-02-24 22:38:41
QUOTE (Zalandrus Meyedsun @ Feb 24 2010, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, the ambassador, trade minister, and all of their aides, plus the CL can withdraw...I really don't see the big inconvenience. A little bit of extra bureaucracy to protect against people completely robbing a city or commune...


All of the aides can withdraw money, but only if they are able to enter the council chambers. Which means only ministers who also happen to be aides to ambassador - which brings us back to a workaround situation. The ambassador ministry is actually used as a slush fund in some organizations, which makes all sorts of tracking incredibly difficult.

QUOTE (Xenthos @ Feb 24 2010, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You didn't even bother to read what I wrote, did you?

I don't even have the access to withdraw those funds. I have to ask for them myself. That is intentional. I have the ability to move funds to the Ambassador that someone else can then withdraw for me, but I cannot just move things through and take it.

My ability to move funds to those ministries doesn't change that I still have to ask the same people to withdraw it. tongue.gif


I did understand that part. I didn't mean that you are able to withdraw the money yourself - just that you are not in a position that requires it much. You would have to ask for money if you needed it, but how often do you really need it as treasurer or steward? Maybe I'm missing something, but you don't seem to be on the other side of the situation much.
Xenthos2010-02-24 22:45:34
QUOTE (mitbulls @ Feb 24 2010, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I did understand that part. I didn't mean that you are able to withdraw the money yourself - just that you are not in a position that requires it much. You would have to ask for money if you needed it, but how often do you really need it as treasurer or steward? Maybe I'm missing something, but you don't seem to be on the other side of the situation much.

I'm on the other side as much as much as you are; I need Commune funds for Commune purchases I make.
Unknown2010-02-24 22:54:03
I've never been on any side... but.. apart from giant purchases, can't you just keep tally of expenses outlaid from personal cash and put in for reimbursement?

I mean... if everyone's active, and doing their jobs, it should be fine. If they're not...
Unknown2010-02-24 23:36:13
Most importantly: no city/commune should ever be robbed blind with a good Steward. Even if someone emptied their ministry, they'd get a few hundred thousand, maybe a million. The vast majority of funds are kept in the coffers.
Kelly2010-02-25 00:03:57
I don't see a problem with allowing all Ministers to withdraw from their respective accounts (coming from a Trade Minister who already can). Large theft shouldn't be an issue, as they would essentially only have access to what is allotted to them, be it a couple hundred thousand or maybe nothing at all! Already in Celest you cannot be aided to a couple ministry combinations as a safety against mass gold theft.

On the other hand, there certainly are a slew of other ways to work around the limited access to gold as have already been stated.

Someone mentioned investable privileges for aides, which personally I would love to have. At least for me, knowing that Trade aides can not only withdraw funds but can also manipulate the city commodities/shop is a huge deterrence in appointing them.
Unknown2010-02-25 16:24:08
QUOTE (Kelly @ Feb 24 2010, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see a problem with allowing all Ministers to withdraw from their respective accounts (coming from a Trade Minister who already can). Large theft shouldn't be an issue, as they would essentially only have access to what is allotted to them, be it a couple hundred thousand or maybe nothing at all! Already in Celest you cannot be aided to a couple ministry combinations as a safety against mass gold theft.

On the other hand, there certainly are a slew of other ways to work around the limited access to gold as have already been stated.

Someone mentioned investable privileges for aides, which personally I would love to have. At least for me, knowing that Trade aides can not only withdraw funds but can also manipulate the city commodities/shop is a huge deterrence in appointing them.


There are similar problems for power aides. All power aides can connect and disconnect aethermanses, but I have never yet seen an organization where anyone but the power minister was allowed to do it.
Kelly2010-02-25 18:41:27
QUOTE (mitbulls @ Feb 25 2010, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are similar problems for power aides. All power aides can connect and disconnect aethermanses, but I have never yet seen an organization where anyone but the power minister was allowed to do it.


Being allowed and having the capacity are entirely different. I guess I'm just paranoid.
Esano2010-02-26 00:51:42
It sounds like your problem isn't so much "who has the privs to withdraw gold" as "who can get in to the council chambers", which is ... a separate issue, really, and far more dependant on the org you're in.
Unknown2010-02-26 01:58:42
QUOTE (Esano @ Feb 25 2010, 06:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It sounds like your problem isn't so much "who has the privs to withdraw gold" as "who can get in to the council chambers", which is ... a separate issue, really, and far more dependant on the org you're in.


It's really both.

I am basically a proponent of the idea that ministers should be trustworthy, should have some real responsibility, and should be free and fully capable of doing their jobs. For what it's worth, I don't think this should apply to me as a steward. I am basically arguing because I know how annoying it is for other ministry positions - especially for Culture Minister. That is really why I brought up the point about Xenthos not being on the other side. I have been treasurer, steward, and culture minister. As treasurer and steward, it doesn't really matter much who can withdraw the gold. As culture minister, it is a huge annoyance that you can't even get at the money in your own fund.

Basically, my case is that - regardless what your actual opinions are on the matter - the current system makes no sense. There are separate funds to track the expenditures and budgets for each ministry, but there is not a single organization that effectively uses them that way, because it is not possible. The easiest fix, in my opinion - which conveniently solves the above issue as well - is to let ministers have access to their ministry funds.