Sylphas2010-03-23 02:49:22
QUOTE (Saran @ Mar 22 2010, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As stated, you have this backwards.
Originally Ascendants weren't even allowed in a divine order regardless and it was going to be either cults OR able to join divine order, there was player whining along the lines of "But I'm avatar, I shouldn't have to give that up to be an Ascendant" "I want to be able to choose between cults and being in an order" etc and suddenly it changed to the stance you now represent.
Again, I do not see why Vernals who are raised by the City/Commune to serve it, must serve under a god as well except because people whined.
Originally Ascendants weren't even allowed in a divine order regardless and it was going to be either cults OR able to join divine order, there was player whining along the lines of "But I'm avatar, I shouldn't have to give that up to be an Ascendant" "I want to be able to choose between cults and being in an order" etc and suddenly it changed to the stance you now represent.
Again, I do not see why Vernals who are raised by the City/Commune to serve it, must serve under a god as well except because people whined.
If we limited Vernal numbers, like the plan is, is there a real problem with changing cult abilities to simply affect commune/city members, or tweak them with that in mind? I think it would make a lot more sense, and then if you wanted to expand order RP you have Avatars to go with.
Zalandrus2010-03-23 03:04:15
With the new order affinity system, it might make sense to extend some cult benefits (new ones or old ones) to all citizens of the god's city. (Of course, then you have the odd cases, like Ilyarin leaving Celest for Gaudi but still having an Eventru cult...)
Unknown2010-03-23 03:22:47
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 22 2010, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've decided to go off track and do an overview of the Ascendant and Demigod system. As you know, we will be implementing either a steep upkeep cost for Vernal Ascendants or possibly increasing the cost to raise Vernal Ascendants. We are open to rewarding ex-vernals, though not to the point of giving them a special rank with all current ascendant powers (i.e., vernals in all but name). Perhaps we could forever give them the title of "vernal" and possibly some other perks (for example, would it be feasible/desirable to maintain cults?). There has been talk about adding skills for the Ascendance skillset--give us ideas! Should we emphasize more RP skills? Should we remove/soften some of the combat skills? There has also been discussion about powers that demigods can buy, including a second tradeskill. What happens if they lose demigod? How would that work?
The floor is yours. This thread is for constructive conversation. Trollish behavior will not be tolerated and this is not the place to complain for the sake of complaining.
The floor is yours. This thread is for constructive conversation. Trollish behavior will not be tolerated and this is not the place to complain for the sake of complaining.
I think the best thing to do is to cap VAs with the incremental cost system as planned. Those losing it can retain the RP skills, but lose combat skills (stuff like aegis and fear aura).
We don't need to increase any powers. Its the power creep. We don't need to willfully walk into that. Furthermore, anything new introduced that has a big impact on combat is just going to be even more problematic trying to balance it when org balance is so insanely skewed.
RP skills are great. Tradeskills are great, so long as the transcendent ability isn't retained on the second one.
Similarly, this is all true for any essence shop. Fun stuff is wonderful- custom entry/exit messages, attainable utility stuff like flight/burrow. But what we really don't need is a new "must reach" plateau for combat. The combat system here is robust and deep enough not to have to slather yet another layer on the thing.
Regarding demi-abilities- I've no opinion either way on Divine Fire and the like, but pulling them out and making them have to be repurchased is just a grind for grind's sake. No thanks.
Rika2010-03-23 03:31:21
Unless demis get other things in return, I don't think any nerf is justified (other than maybe the divinefire modification).
Unknown2010-03-23 03:31:33
It might be best not to tack a second tradeskill to demigod purchases and just make it something everyone could attain, with whatever limitations deemed necessary.
I really want to keep forging now, but I'd love to be able to extract poison again too, even if I don't get the extra shrugging/immunity stuff.
I really want to keep forging now, but I'd love to be able to extract poison again too, even if I don't get the extra shrugging/immunity stuff.
Rodngar2010-03-23 03:43:19
QUOTE (rika @ Mar 22 2010, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Unless demis get other things in return, I don't think any nerf is justified (other than maybe the divinefire modification).
Why do you need anything in return when the point is a balance change to make things more fair? I've never heard a rational explanation about why you need something in return for a nerf? Nerfs are just that: nerfs. They aren't trades. They are there with the express intent to adjust something to make it fair. It's kind of like taking away your axe and handing you another axe that is a different color - the point of taking away your axe was to TAKE AWAY YOUR AXE.
Unknown2010-03-23 03:47:12
Okay, my turn for a pitch, it takes a lot of inspiration from everyone's ideas.
DEMIGODS:
1. When a player reaches level 100, they become a demigod, all they get is the health, mana, etc. befitting someone of that level and the appropriate crit rate. Well, and the ability to phoenix/essence levels.
2. All demigod powers and stats will be purchasable for essence (in an essence shop). You have to buy zap, ascend, seek, divinefire, etc. in order to use them, this encourages the individual to have to work to get their leet pk skills. You can only buy stats once, and they are separated, i.e. you have to purchase +con, then buy +str, and so on. Of course, there will also be neat RP things like the second tradeskill you can buy here.
PARAGONS AND ASCENDANCE:
1. Ascendance as it is should be separated into base skills and spec skills. Paragons, which I'll talk about right below can only learn base ascendance, while Vernal Ascendants can learn base and spec ascendance. Base ascendance is composed of cult skills only, spec ascendance will be composed of everything else.
1. A mortal can be ascended (for 500k+ power?) into a...we'll call it Paragon after the discussions. Paragons simply become the aforementioned demigods (no domoth bonuses or anything) who cannot lose demihood as well as an addition of "base Ascendance". When a Paragon dies with 0 essence, they cost their org power. There can be as many of these as you want with the stipulation that it will be costlier each time you make a paragon. You can also give paragons a free orgbix if they don't have one already if you wish.
2. Paragons can then be ascended for 1 mil+ power to become vernal ascendants. There can only one of these per org. All vernal ascendants get are the 'standard' demigod powers for free (won't have to buy them from the essence shop), base/spec ascendance, and domoth bonuses.
3. To make the transition smooth, all current VA's become Paragons, then from there, one of them can be elected to VA again. TA's are the same as VA's under this system.
I really like this idea because it accomplishes many things at once: those who were rewarded with VA for serving their org still get a shiny status and have the chance to participate in the essence shop idea without being totally broken with ascendance skills/domoth bonuses yet still have the RP utility of cults. This also solves the idea of VA remaining special since there can only be 6 VA's total under this system. This also happens to nerf insta-demis because it makes them have to spend essence to get all their lame broken skills. In essence, I want to remove the idea that demigod = pker. The accompanying stats/abilities that can be purchased can be adjusted accordingly.
DEMIGODS:
1. When a player reaches level 100, they become a demigod, all they get is the health, mana, etc. befitting someone of that level and the appropriate crit rate. Well, and the ability to phoenix/essence levels.
2. All demigod powers and stats will be purchasable for essence (in an essence shop). You have to buy zap, ascend, seek, divinefire, etc. in order to use them, this encourages the individual to have to work to get their leet pk skills. You can only buy stats once, and they are separated, i.e. you have to purchase +con, then buy +str, and so on. Of course, there will also be neat RP things like the second tradeskill you can buy here.
PARAGONS AND ASCENDANCE:
1. Ascendance as it is should be separated into base skills and spec skills. Paragons, which I'll talk about right below can only learn base ascendance, while Vernal Ascendants can learn base and spec ascendance. Base ascendance is composed of cult skills only, spec ascendance will be composed of everything else.
1. A mortal can be ascended (for 500k+ power?) into a...we'll call it Paragon after the discussions. Paragons simply become the aforementioned demigods (no domoth bonuses or anything) who cannot lose demihood as well as an addition of "base Ascendance". When a Paragon dies with 0 essence, they cost their org power. There can be as many of these as you want with the stipulation that it will be costlier each time you make a paragon. You can also give paragons a free orgbix if they don't have one already if you wish.
2. Paragons can then be ascended for 1 mil+ power to become vernal ascendants. There can only one of these per org. All vernal ascendants get are the 'standard' demigod powers for free (won't have to buy them from the essence shop), base/spec ascendance, and domoth bonuses.
3. To make the transition smooth, all current VA's become Paragons, then from there, one of them can be elected to VA again. TA's are the same as VA's under this system.
I really like this idea because it accomplishes many things at once: those who were rewarded with VA for serving their org still get a shiny status and have the chance to participate in the essence shop idea without being totally broken with ascendance skills/domoth bonuses yet still have the RP utility of cults. This also solves the idea of VA remaining special since there can only be 6 VA's total under this system. This also happens to nerf insta-demis because it makes them have to spend essence to get all their lame broken skills. In essence, I want to remove the idea that demigod = pker. The accompanying stats/abilities that can be purchased can be adjusted accordingly.
Rael2010-03-23 03:48:11
QUOTE (Rodngar @ Mar 22 2010, 09:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do you need anything in return when the point is a balance change to make things more fair? I've never heard a rational explanation about why you need something in return for a nerf? Nerfs are just that: nerfs. They aren't trades. They are there with the express intent to adjust something to make it fair. It's kind of like taking away your axe and handing you another axe that is a different color - the point of taking away your axe was to TAKE AWAY YOUR AXE.
Whoah stop right there, leave my axe out of this! You got an axe to grind you take it up with me.
Rodngar2010-03-23 03:50:23
Is this taking in to account any changes they make to Demigods? I honestly don't think having stats cost essence fixes the problems presented in stats - only slows it down so somebody at level 100 has to wait a few days before they actually GET their stats. The point is that those stats still exist, are still possible, and are an unfair advantage. I don't think having the time to waste to reach level 100 should justify having higher stats than those who do not have the time/patience to reach level 100 - a title of 'prestige' such as Demigod should not confer balance-altering powers such as untyped bonuses to base statistics that sometimes DEFINE a class (Warrior?).
EDIT: The cost of entry is already so absurb monetarily both IC and OOC for the example of Warrior, why in gods name would you then demand a steep cost of TIME as well?
EDIT: The cost of entry is already so absurb monetarily both IC and OOC for the example of Warrior, why in gods name would you then demand a steep cost of TIME as well?
Unknown2010-03-23 03:52:34
Well personally, that's debatable and I'm sure it can be adjusted if people really think the +2 stats are really gamebreaking. I know people mostly agree with changing divinefire, so you never know.
Rika2010-03-23 03:53:28
QUOTE (Rodngar @ Mar 23 2010, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do you need anything in return when the point is a balance change to make things more fair? I've never heard a rational explanation about why you need something in return for a nerf? Nerfs are just that: nerfs. They aren't trades. They are there with the express intent to adjust something to make it fair. It's kind of like taking away your axe and handing you another axe that is a different color - the point of taking away your axe was to TAKE AWAY YOUR AXE.
I'm talking about RP related things. I'm saying demigods should still be something more than just two levels higher than 98. The justified part is because I don't think they are gamebreaking at all.
Xiel2010-03-23 03:53:43
A broader base of stipulation stemming from Shuyin's idea for the shop + what I want as an Ascendant/Demigod who dislikes essence just being gathered for no point at all - which, coincidentally, leads to boredom, which sucks - (based off of Exeryte's list of goodies, and yes, essence costs are negotiable):
        boon5650: the Boon of Ascension                          20    15,000,000es
        boon5651: the Boon of Regeneration                        20    5,000,000es
        boon5652: the Boon of Strength                            20    10,000,000es
        boon5653: the Boon of Intelligence                        20    10,000,000es
        boon5654: the Boon of Charisma                            20    10,000,000es
        boon5655: the Boon of Dexterity                          20    10,000,000es
        boon5656: the Boon of Constitution                        20    10,000,000es
        boon5657: the Boon of Divinefire                          20    15,000,000es
        boon5658: the Boon of Magnora                            20    5,000,000es
        boon5659: the Boon of Dynara                              20    5,000,000es
        boon5660: the Boon of Sight                              20    2,000,000es
        boon5661: the Boon of Clarity                            20    1,000,000es
        aura1234: an Aura of Teleportation                        20    15,000,000es
        aura2345: an Aura of Motion                              20    20,000,000es
        aura3123: an Aura of Ascending                            20    15,000,000es
        aura4123: an Aura of Ambiance                            20    5,000,000es
        aura8234: an Aura of Resonance                            20    15,000,000es
      clasp3456: a clasp of Nature                              20    20,000,000es
      clasp4567: a clasp of Chaos                                20    20,000,000es
      clasp5678: a clasp of War                                  20    20,000,000es
      clasp6789: a clasp of Justice                              20    20,000,000es
      clasp7890: a clasp of Knowledge                            20    20,000,000es
      clasp1111: a clasp of Beauty                              20    20,000,000es
      clasp2222: a clasp of Life                                20    20,000,000es
      clasp3333: a clasp of Death                                20    20,000,000es
      clasp4444: a clasp of Harmony                              20    20,000,000es
    crystal7123: a crystal of electricity                        20    5,000,000es
    crystal8123: a crystal of magic                              20    5,000,000es
    crystal9123: a crystal of poison                            20    5,000,000es
    crystal2234: a crystal of fire                              20    5,000,000es
    crystal3234: a crystal of coldness                          20    5,000,000es
    crystal4234: a crystal of asphyxiation                      20    5,000,000es
    crystal5234: a crystal of psychic                            20    5,000,000es
    crystal6234: a crystal of cutting                            20    5,000,000es
    crystal7234: a crystal of blunt                              20    5,000,000es
  tradeslot5017: an aetheric tradeslot                          20  120,000,000es
In conjunction with the new proposal of the Paragon system, the essence shop conglomerates each aspect of the things one would purchase using personal essence. All of the artifacts listed above are one time use only and cannot stack with multiples of the same thing, save for the tradeslots.
Rather self-explanatory, the Boons give the demigod the things which are taken for granted now: Ascension for being able to ASCEND TO THE HAVENS, Regeneration for the level one regeneration experienced on all planes/terrains, the statistical boosts so one can choose exactly what they want to buff on themselves, Divinefire for that particular defense, Magnora for the custom zap, Dynara for being able to REFRESH ME, Sight for being able to SEEK from the Havens, and Clarity for the custom shout.
The Auras are designed to introduce a layer of flavour and dimension for demigods and the like to deepen their roleplay. Subject to being accepted by the Divine, the flavour messages are as follows:
The Aura of Teleportation enables customization of one's teleport/tesseract message.
The Aura of Motion enables customization of one's entrance/exit message.
the Aura of Ascending enables customization of the message for ASCENDing to the Havens.
The Aura of Ambiance exudes a room-wide, toggleable custom ambiance message approved by the Divine. 1,000 essence cost per tic of a message.
The Aura of Resonance gives the demigod a second customizable shout, enabling them to shout1 or shout2 depending on which shout they want to use. Only available for those with the Boon of Clarity on their person.
The Seal Clasps enable the demigod to activate and terminate the effects of a karmic blessing on them for essence. Upon activation, a 25,0000 essence fine is set, with a 2,500 essence cost per hour the seal is left active. Activating one type of clasp prevents the opposing clasp from being activated (so one cannot activate Chaos and Harmony at the same time).
The Crystals of Wrath are a one-time use artifact to forever change the damage type of one's custom zap. Only available for those with the Boon of Magnora on their person.
The Trade slots are to appease the masses with as many additional trade slots as they can possibly afford on their person. The sole artifact able to be stacked on this list, learning crafts are subject the limitations required by the profession in question (ie. needing Knighthood to learn Forging even if a tradeslot is bought.)
Edit: And cause Ragniliff told me to, the shop can be Before Avechna and Avechna can be the shopkeeper for both flavour and lulz.
CODE
        boon5650: the Boon of Ascension                          20    15,000,000es
        boon5651: the Boon of Regeneration                        20    5,000,000es
        boon5652: the Boon of Strength                            20    10,000,000es
        boon5653: the Boon of Intelligence                        20    10,000,000es
        boon5654: the Boon of Charisma                            20    10,000,000es
        boon5655: the Boon of Dexterity                          20    10,000,000es
        boon5656: the Boon of Constitution                        20    10,000,000es
        boon5657: the Boon of Divinefire                          20    15,000,000es
        boon5658: the Boon of Magnora                            20    5,000,000es
        boon5659: the Boon of Dynara                              20    5,000,000es
        boon5660: the Boon of Sight                              20    2,000,000es
        boon5661: the Boon of Clarity                            20    1,000,000es
        aura1234: an Aura of Teleportation                        20    15,000,000es
        aura2345: an Aura of Motion                              20    20,000,000es
        aura3123: an Aura of Ascending                            20    15,000,000es
        aura4123: an Aura of Ambiance                            20    5,000,000es
        aura8234: an Aura of Resonance                            20    15,000,000es
      clasp3456: a clasp of Nature                              20    20,000,000es
      clasp4567: a clasp of Chaos                                20    20,000,000es
      clasp5678: a clasp of War                                  20    20,000,000es
      clasp6789: a clasp of Justice                              20    20,000,000es
      clasp7890: a clasp of Knowledge                            20    20,000,000es
      clasp1111: a clasp of Beauty                              20    20,000,000es
      clasp2222: a clasp of Life                                20    20,000,000es
      clasp3333: a clasp of Death                                20    20,000,000es
      clasp4444: a clasp of Harmony                              20    20,000,000es
    crystal7123: a crystal of electricity                        20    5,000,000es
    crystal8123: a crystal of magic                              20    5,000,000es
    crystal9123: a crystal of poison                            20    5,000,000es
    crystal2234: a crystal of fire                              20    5,000,000es
    crystal3234: a crystal of coldness                          20    5,000,000es
    crystal4234: a crystal of asphyxiation                      20    5,000,000es
    crystal5234: a crystal of psychic                            20    5,000,000es
    crystal6234: a crystal of cutting                            20    5,000,000es
    crystal7234: a crystal of blunt                              20    5,000,000es
  tradeslot5017: an aetheric tradeslot                          20  120,000,000es
In conjunction with the new proposal of the Paragon system, the essence shop conglomerates each aspect of the things one would purchase using personal essence. All of the artifacts listed above are one time use only and cannot stack with multiples of the same thing, save for the tradeslots.
Rather self-explanatory, the Boons give the demigod the things which are taken for granted now: Ascension for being able to ASCEND TO THE HAVENS, Regeneration for the level one regeneration experienced on all planes/terrains, the statistical boosts so one can choose exactly what they want to buff on themselves, Divinefire for that particular defense, Magnora for the custom zap, Dynara for being able to REFRESH ME, Sight for being able to SEEK from the Havens, and Clarity for the custom shout.
The Auras are designed to introduce a layer of flavour and dimension for demigods and the like to deepen their roleplay. Subject to being accepted by the Divine, the flavour messages are as follows:
The Aura of Teleportation enables customization of one's teleport/tesseract message.
The Aura of Motion enables customization of one's entrance/exit message.
the Aura of Ascending enables customization of the message for ASCENDing to the Havens.
The Aura of Ambiance exudes a room-wide, toggleable custom ambiance message approved by the Divine. 1,000 essence cost per tic of a message.
The Aura of Resonance gives the demigod a second customizable shout, enabling them to shout1
The Seal Clasps enable the demigod to activate and terminate the effects of a karmic blessing on them for essence. Upon activation, a 25,0000 essence fine is set, with a 2,500 essence cost per hour the seal is left active. Activating one type of clasp prevents the opposing clasp from being activated (so one cannot activate Chaos and Harmony at the same time).
The Crystals of Wrath are a one-time use artifact to forever change the damage type of one's custom zap. Only available for those with the Boon of Magnora on their person.
The Trade slots are to appease the masses with as many additional trade slots as they can possibly afford on their person. The sole artifact able to be stacked on this list, learning crafts are subject the limitations required by the profession in question (ie. needing Knighthood to learn Forging even if a tradeslot is bought.)
Edit: And cause Ragniliff told me to, the shop can be Before Avechna and Avechna can be the shopkeeper for both flavour and lulz.
Unknown2010-03-23 03:55:52
The idea for my pitch is that if it does go through, all current demis will have to purchase their abilities/stats at the cost of essence. Said abilities can/will be altered to be more balanced. If you really feel that the stats are really important to compete, then rally up support and get it nerfed.
What I am doing is divorcing the idea of demigod = suddenly leet
In fact, if a complete overhaul is done, my idea encourages making demigod something nice but not necessary so long as the accompanying skills are balanced.
What I am doing is divorcing the idea of demigod = suddenly leet
In fact, if a complete overhaul is done, my idea encourages making demigod something nice but not necessary so long as the accompanying skills are balanced.
Rodngar2010-03-23 04:02:41
QUOTE (rika @ Mar 22 2010, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm talking about RP related things. I'm saying demigods should still be something more than just two levels higher than 98. The justified part is because I don't think they are gamebreaking at all.
If you are asking for things that confer a mechanical advantage weaker than gaining +2 base statistics, perhaps I can see justification - but if you want something equally powerful, I think you're really forgetting what a nerf is. If it's RP-related stuff, whatever, you can have whatever you want. Just keep the RP-related tools far out of the field of combat, because mixing RP-justification of power with mechanical combat balance is honestly the most grueling argument that could be initiated here. I honestly have no issue with anything besides adjustable size, regeneration, divinefire, power refresh, and +2 stats. Those are all combat advantages that are just written off as required for some if not all classes, meaning that almost every single person looking to break in to high tier fighting MUST invest a steep amount of time before they can enjoy what they paid for. Sure, they can/could/will fight in second rate tiers and middle tier matches - but in the end, Demigods have a clear cut, hardcoded advantage over them.
This does not account for player skill, of course, but player skill honestly should have very little baring when it comes to numerical balance.
Now, I'd have a lot less of an issue with Demigod conferring these advantages if there was a clear cut path to it that was incredibly efficient and streamlined - but hey, every single time we get one of those, somebody inevitably gets angry about it and we go back to square one of Kiradawea's? flowchart of Awesome EXP Gain Schemes. That is a completely different topic that has less to do with endgame and more about the road TO endgame, so I'll keep that out of this thread.
EDIT: On the above post proposed system: I have no issue except for purchasable combat benefits. The rest is actually awesome and I'd pursue Demigod just to have those custom things, but I'd pursue it at my own leisure since those things could be defined as useless flair and not tools for combat.
Unknown2010-03-23 04:09:11
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Mar 23 2010, 04:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shuyin's stuff
Strongly disagree with buying base demigod powers. It plays right into the same snowball effect problem that (in part) gave rise to this whole issue to begin with.
At this point, its just not really feasible for several of the orgs to effectively organize to recoup regaining their base abilities. Again, this goes to macro balancing. Gaudi, at its best, has enough for a modest astral bash. We just shouldn't be stripping away the core combat benefits from demigod when things stand as they do.
This is, of course, compounded by giving vernals/exvernals/whatever the base abilities for free. This would be the same snowball effect, only now, the advantages would be highly relevant to combat.
Change the powers themselves across the board, like the DF stuff, fine. But don't make a purchase system. Its enough that VAs can't lose demi.
Regarding the "inherent unfairness" of the demi powers to begin with- that ship sailed so long ago that to change course now would require an overhaul of knight stats, and possibly over archetypes. Again. Demi is the requisite now, for knights if nothing else. Leave the basic stuff alone, it's what we've been balancing around for a long, long time now. Change how it works, like DF, fine.
Rodngar2010-03-23 04:17:17
I guess "Genie out of the bottle" or "ship has sailed" is an argument I can't really beat, since to remove the stats would hurt a lot of things. My solution was to just roll the stats in to all races or give the stats to characters at a certain, much easier achieved level. I guess my biggest problem is that to get in to combat in any IRE game, you must invest a large amount of money. You must also invest an amount of time to learn how your class works, and to get a system and make it work. Then, if you want to be a Warrior, you have to invest MORE time to become a Titan or Demi. In fact, to not be underpowered compared to any Demigod, you must invest more time to become one.
By making Demigod the standard of balance, the effective entry cost of combat in Lusternia is that much higher in terms of time investment.
EDIT: My system to give the stats at lower levels: every 10 levels, you pick 1 stat, it gets the +2 bonus. Basically a 'adventurer getting more hardy' thing. I guess that then makes the problem less 'serious', but it still attaches it to a level - but lets be realistic, who doesn't get to at least level 50 who is looking to PK?
EDIT2: Also, wasn't it mentioned that the admin wanted to make combat MORE accessible? Wouldn't a steep investment of time to get Demi be counterproductive to that? Wouldn't a fast track to Demi be productive in fixing that without interfering with the base power of Demigod?
By making Demigod the standard of balance, the effective entry cost of combat in Lusternia is that much higher in terms of time investment.
EDIT: My system to give the stats at lower levels: every 10 levels, you pick 1 stat, it gets the +2 bonus. Basically a 'adventurer getting more hardy' thing. I guess that then makes the problem less 'serious', but it still attaches it to a level - but lets be realistic, who doesn't get to at least level 50 who is looking to PK?
EDIT2: Also, wasn't it mentioned that the admin wanted to make combat MORE accessible? Wouldn't a steep investment of time to get Demi be counterproductive to that? Wouldn't a fast track to Demi be productive in fixing that without interfering with the base power of Demigod?
Unknown2010-03-23 04:18:43
My feelings on Ascendance:
1. All the cult skills are fine, they're all pretty much RP related with the exception of intervention, but that doesn't work in distort anymore.
Fearaura - make it like wrath where it ticks only for one person every time, otherwise, change it so the fearing out isn't instant.
Affinity - Eh, I've no strong feelings, but if you remove the meld eq extending effect, I'd prefer you increase the DMP given.
Benevolence - I personally think it's fine, it helps, but bear in mind the the transfer is a 2:1 ratio where I have to give 2 mil to spot a buddy 1 mil.
Aegis - You mileage may vary. It was already changed so you can't use aegis with divinefire up and you can always instakill the aegisee as demonstrated repeatedly. I think it's fine.
Portal - Now that distort stops it, I'd prefer if the price for using portal in enemy territory changes, since I believe monoliths stop portals too.
Consumption - It currently works like this: enemy bleeds, you use consumption and get a bit (very little) of essence + insanity. I'd rather just make this into a corpse destruction skill for a piddly amount of essence + insanity
Everything else is fine to me.
Demigods:
+Stats - can be adjusted again if it is as gamebreaking, though the new damage formulas and stats changes helped a lot with demiwarriors being broken. The same cannot be said of int/cha using classes. I'd be fine with toning it down personally.
Divinefire - just remove the curing tick like Lehki said and I'd be fine with it.
Refresh - I personally don't think it's broken, demis mostly use it as a free recharge of 10p from defenses. Though I admit, GP/refresh/GP has happened or serpent/refresh/etc.
Everything else is fine.
1. All the cult skills are fine, they're all pretty much RP related with the exception of intervention, but that doesn't work in distort anymore.
Fearaura - make it like wrath where it ticks only for one person every time, otherwise, change it so the fearing out isn't instant.
Affinity - Eh, I've no strong feelings, but if you remove the meld eq extending effect, I'd prefer you increase the DMP given.
Benevolence - I personally think it's fine, it helps, but bear in mind the the transfer is a 2:1 ratio where I have to give 2 mil to spot a buddy 1 mil.
Aegis - You mileage may vary. It was already changed so you can't use aegis with divinefire up and you can always instakill the aegisee as demonstrated repeatedly. I think it's fine.
Portal - Now that distort stops it, I'd prefer if the price for using portal in enemy territory changes, since I believe monoliths stop portals too.
Consumption - It currently works like this: enemy bleeds, you use consumption and get a bit (very little) of essence + insanity. I'd rather just make this into a corpse destruction skill for a piddly amount of essence + insanity
Everything else is fine to me.
Demigods:
+Stats - can be adjusted again if it is as gamebreaking, though the new damage formulas and stats changes helped a lot with demiwarriors being broken. The same cannot be said of int/cha using classes. I'd be fine with toning it down personally.
Divinefire - just remove the curing tick like Lehki said and I'd be fine with it.
Refresh - I personally don't think it's broken, demis mostly use it as a free recharge of 10p from defenses. Though I admit, GP/refresh/GP has happened or serpent/refresh/etc.
Everything else is fine.
Unknown2010-03-23 04:20:19
QUOTE (Rainydays @ Mar 22 2010, 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Strongly disagree with buying base demigod powers. It plays right into the same snowball effect problem that (in part) gave rise to this whole issue to begin with.
At this point, its just not really feasible for several of the orgs to effectively organize to recoup regaining their base abilities. Again, this goes to macro balancing. Gaudi, at its best, has enough for a modest astral bash. We just shouldn't be stripping away the core combat benefits from demigod when things stand as they do.
This is, of course, compounded by giving vernals/exvernals/whatever the base abilities for free. This would be the same snowball effect, only now, the advantages would be highly relevant to combat.
Change the powers themselves across the board, like the DF stuff, fine. But don't make a purchase system. Its enough that VAs can't lose demi.
Regarding the "inherent unfairness" of the demi powers to begin with- that ship sailed so long ago that to change course now would require an overhaul of knight stats, and possibly over archetypes. Again. Demi is the requisite now, for knights if nothing else. Leave the basic stuff alone, it's what we've been balancing around for a long, long time now. Change how it works, like DF, fine.
At this point, its just not really feasible for several of the orgs to effectively organize to recoup regaining their base abilities. Again, this goes to macro balancing. Gaudi, at its best, has enough for a modest astral bash. We just shouldn't be stripping away the core combat benefits from demigod when things stand as they do.
This is, of course, compounded by giving vernals/exvernals/whatever the base abilities for free. This would be the same snowball effect, only now, the advantages would be highly relevant to combat.
Change the powers themselves across the board, like the DF stuff, fine. But don't make a purchase system. Its enough that VAs can't lose demi.
Regarding the "inherent unfairness" of the demi powers to begin with- that ship sailed so long ago that to change course now would require an overhaul of knight stats, and possibly over archetypes. Again. Demi is the requisite now, for knights if nothing else. Leave the basic stuff alone, it's what we've been balancing around for a long, long time now. Change how it works, like DF, fine.
How so? Having to buy base powers means everyone is exactly at the same level now. Only VA's will get base powers for free, and there will only be 6 of those. Paragons will still have to buy them like everyone else.
Unknown2010-03-23 04:22:25
QUOTE (Rodngar @ Mar 23 2010, 05:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just "Genie of the bottle" or "ship has sailed" is an argument I can't really beat, since to remove the stats would hurt a lot of things. My solution was to just roll the stats in to all races or give the stats to characters at a certain, much easier achieved level. I guess my biggest problem is that to get in to combat in any IRE game, you must invest a large amount of money. You must also invest an amount of time to learn how your class works, and to get a system and make it work. Then, if you want to be a Warrior, you have to invest MORE time to become a Titan or Demi. In fact, to not be underpowered compared to any Demigod, you must invest more time to become one.
By making Demigod the standard of balance, the effective entry cost of combat in Lusternia is that much higher in terms of time investment.
By making Demigod the standard of balance, the effective entry cost of combat in Lusternia is that much higher in terms of time investment.
Which is all true. And you can find me rawring about this and that I'm sure. Or ask one of the people I've yelled at now and again. But, even I managed to get demigod. Its attainable, with all the influencing and aetherbashing (though slivvens hurt that a lot).
Demishop is good. Have stuff you can buy that is RP and flavor. Or even simple utility. Leave the base demi as is, because the balancing act there would be horrid, and repurchasing it would just exasperate an already skewed macro game.
Gregori2010-03-23 04:23:17
I agree to the demigods spending essence to attain their buffs. Lazy demigods won't get far and proactive ones will.
On Affinity, remove the melding aspect on EQ and increase the DMP.
On Fearaura, make it so the affect is not an instant move, give the person a chance to compose. If they whiff the compose then they get what they deserve.
On Affinity, remove the melding aspect on EQ and increase the DMP.
On Fearaura, make it so the affect is not an instant move, give the person a chance to compose. If they whiff the compose then they get what they deserve.
