I've decided to go off track and do an overview of the Ascendant and Demigod system. As you know, we will be implementing either a steep upkeep cost for Vernal Ascendants or possibly increasing the cost to raise Vernal Ascendants. We are open to rewarding ex-vernals, though not to the point of giving them a special rank with all current ascendant powers (i.e., vernals in all but name). Perhaps we could forever give them the title of "vernal" and possibly some other perks (for example, would it be feasible/desirable to maintain cults?). There has been talk about adding skills for the Ascendance skillset--give us ideas! Should we emphasize more RP skills? Should we remove/soften some of the combat skills? There has also been discussion about powers that demigods can buy, including a second tradeskill. What happens if they lose demigod? How would that work?

The floor is yours. This thread is for constructive conversation. Trollish behavior will not be tolerated and this is not the place to complain for the sake of complaining.

I think one of the few things you'll find everyone agreeing on is that Fearaura should be deleted.

In general, this is a positive change that really should have been addressed when Vernals were first conceived or at least soon thereafter, it would have greatly assuaged any feelings of discontent over losing effort put into working on trans'ing Ascendancy. That being said, it's also understandable that current Vernals feel a bit put off with the announcement of said change. I would suggest the following course of action:

1.) An increasing power keep for additional Vernals for an organization as described in the initial few posts, allow 2 Vernals per org for free.
2.) Set the power refund for removal Vernal-hood to a 300k power max (As time required to gather 700k power is comparable to what it currently takes to reach demigod anyhow).
3.) Allow a full refund or at least a majority refund of essence used in Ascendancy to be refunded to the player whom loses Vernal status.
4.) Mark those whom have lost Vernal but remain in the org with an honours line that is lost if they ever leave said organization. While they carry the mark, they may be raised again to Vernal for a reduced power cost (let's say, 600k power - to be in line with the amount refunded.)
5.) Lower power income proportionately to address power gluts caused by a decrease in power usage that would have otherwise been used to raise Vernals.

It's more or less unfortunate that regardless of changes in this direction, a segment of players will feel put off for losing achievements that they have worked for and some compensation, such as what is listed above are some ideas on how to address that. On a whole, though, it is a positive change to begin putting attention to the problem behind Vernals and demigods it begins to skew combat too far towards extremes (and hence discourages new players from entering combat due to feeling useless).

Well, for what it's worth, I'd support increasing the cost for each vernal (including a power-debt) rather than steep upkeep. That'll mean that Glom would likely not be able to raise another Vernal for 10-12 RL years, which would be preferrable to having to actually demote VAs.

As for what would happen to the bonuses from essence-shop if/when a Demi loses Demi... well, the most logical way would, of course, be to prevent them from using the abilities, but still keeping them for when they next hit Demi. I wouldn't be too averse to losing them completely either though; it'd just mean they'd have to keep a bigger essence-cushion for unprepared deaths/domoths/revolts/etc. As for the second tradeskill... if it would be impossible for it to be simply blocked, I think it'd be better to be forced to forget it (thus retaining most of the lessons) rather than keeping it as non-demi. Blocking it would be far preferrable, though.

A power cost increase per each new Vernal would not work because it more or less punishes orgs that either did not raise as many Vernals as orgs that raised a large number at a flat rate or did not exist long enough to raise one. In addition, it wouldn't address the issue of growing numbers of Vernals, it'd just slow down the influx somewhat.

If by "somewhat", you mean having to wait 10-12 RL years for the next one... then yes. They are slowed somewhat.

I don't really see the current system as being much of an issue. Lusternia is growing older and the population will steadily increase, therefore the amount of endgame players will naturally increase. It's just general logic. Personally, I think when there are more and/or larger cons to future implementation than exists in the current system, you're better off just leaving it alone.

that's what the power debt is for, to make up for that flat cost and balance it out

as far as limiting numbers, it definitely would, as long as people could strip VA from people to lower the cost to raise another one, you would essentially be cycling through active VA's

Somewhat? If it was 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 million, say, "just slowing it down" would mean the next Vernal from glom would be a decade out. The "only slows it argument" is ridiculous, even if the numbers aren't that steep. And I'm much rather punish younger or weaker orgs than the current Vernals.

The ultimate issue I feel is with the cliques in organizations. There will be the same people as VA's, which is why a limiting system probably shouldn't be in place. Plus there's nothing stopping from the same people being active forever, so no one else will ever be given the chance to become a VA or represent their organization. I think that is a pretty big issue, personally.

Yeah, I can agree with that point, Nienla of the same people holding a position forever if it becomes strictly limited.

A possible solution to that would be to have ascendant skills be temporarily imbued in players that are marked by ascendancy. While marked, their they would only suffer a small drain on their org (relatively minor so something like 150-200 power per weave each), however they also would not have any abilities outside of the normal demigod ones. If an org decides to activate that player's ability, it would incur a larger power drain (something significant, perhaps in the range of 2k-5k power drain per weave) but allow them access to the ascendancy skillset, being able to reform in the Havens, and domoth bonuses.

Power cost in raising would remain at 1m power, stripping one of Vernal status entirely would return 300k power.

Edit: Probably should add that maintaining Vernal powers also should have a personal essence drain in an addition to an org drain if the ability is active. If one's personal essence is not sufficient, they immediately revert back to a demigod with minimal essence.

Edit: And yeah, agreeing with Shamarah that fearaura needs a major change or removal.

Could we not have a system similar to how WoW refunds talents put in place for resetting talent points? (Follow me here, it will make sense).

I saw an idea thrown around for the 2 free Vernal Ascendants per org for the first two VA's. Meaning, these two VA's will cost the org the flat rate of 1 million power. Okay, fair enough, seems to be a pretty fair price for them. Moving on.

For every VA after that, increase the cost to raise them by, say, double. So for VA number 3, it costs 2 million power, and so on and so forth. However, it's not fair to have that increase infinitely, so VA number 10 will cost the org over 4 billion power... That's insane. A soft cap for end-game people is not fair in the least, because when it comes right down to it, Lusternia is a GAME, and a game that limits the fun is no game at all.

Therefor, I propose we limit the cap to 16 million power. In all honesty, that's an INSANE amount, that will take an incredibly long time. However, if these VA's go out and do what they should be doing and going for Domoths, they could help mitigate the insanity that 16 million power brings, making it less work in the long run. Now, obviously, every Demi/VA is going for Domoths, which causes competition, but that's what will keep this system fair.

Thoughts? Comments?

I have no problem with that idea, but all you did was add an upper limit for the cost of raising someone. Not sure what that has to do with WoW at all, either. Seems more like common sense, really.

Scaling power cost to raise each Vernal is better, allowing for the elimination of a 'precious slots' mentality that will inevitably rise up if it were to become an upkeep system. By doing this, you instead make it so combatants are first in line for Ascendants, instead of combatants ONLY as it inevitably would be.

I also have certain personal issues with attaching combat skills to such a limited skillset (as the mentality of exclusivity trumping balance always come in to play and I have always thought that frame of mind was complete bull) - so honestly, I would have no problem with the trimming down of Ascendancy to a roleplay skillset, with the combat benefits being free level 100, domoth access, blah blah blah. I hear Fearaura is pretty lame and Aegis is also in the same boat, and honestly, I raise the question of why those exist besides "they'd be cool and make people seem more ascendant-ish while in combat!" anyways.

WoW talent respecs cost 1g, then 5g, then 10g, capping at 50g. Every month you don't respec it drops by 5g.

I believe the intention is for Vernal Ascendant to be a rare thing - precious commodity is the intention.

Estarra's said she's willing to do a full review of endgame. That is to say, this is your opportunity to pitch your best ideas for an 'essence shop', give ideas on how to prevent it from becoming the new 'trans ascendance' so to speak (a limited essence sink), buffs/changes to cults/ascendance, etcetera - if demigods are too imbalancing, suggest changes to it, your opportunity to suggest changes to make Ascendants a fair split of roleplay/combat, changes to Ascendance (I don't think 'delete fearaura' is a great comment - 'replace fearaura with x death-themed ability' would be far more productive imo).

Death themed? Instant teleportation to any dead cult member.

So I guess an overview of the ascendance skill would be fine as well as endgame ideas huh. Oh boy.

Can we also take this to mean then that we can discuss the fact that some see Demigod as an essential tool for entering combat in more 'meaningful' tiers of skill? Since honestly, if this were not the case, Ascendancy giving level 100 wouldn't be such a big deal (in the fact that taking away heaps of Ascendants per org would be less of a pain in the ass).

This. If you don't have demigod, you're automatically a second-tier combatant. Doesn't matter HOW good you are, you still don't have DivineFire/Refresh/Summon Resistance.

Could we make Divinefire not work for PvP abilities, only bashing? Or is that too hard to code?