This is the only thing I am actually crusading against. I do not think that such an incredibly powerful stat advatage such as this - something that MAKES OR BREAKS being highly successful in a class in top tier - should be conferred via a tremendous time sink. As I said previously, breaking in to combat is already has an incredibly vast cost of money, time, and efort - willingly choosing to continue including Demigod in that when we now have a chance to lobby for it to change to make it fair for people non-Demi to compete is a completely ridiculous oversight. To use Warrior as an example, one must spend vast amounts of credits on skills, credits to get gold or bashing to get gold to buy vials/herbs/whathaveyou, then spend time getting/making a system, then spend time learning their class. Then, when they do that, they find out that their stats are BELOW what their class is balanced on - Demigod stats! Thus, to be ON PAR with the standards used to balance them, they must then make an incredibly long investment of TIME to reach Demigod for those stats.

Don't you see the problem here? You are telling me that before Demigod, you were less than viable/not viable as one of the very small handful of archetypes in this game. An entire ARCHETYPE is less than viable because people want Demigod statistics to stay and not, instead, be distributed elsewhere or by some other system that is much more easily accessible. I do not think it is fair to new players or non-Demi old players alike to be unable to ever be as effective as a Warrior as somebody who spent an unknown amount of time to obtain those increases - that honestly should never have been attached to a PvE grind ANYWAYS. Any mortal, mechanically, NOT TAKING IN TO ACCOUNT CLASS OR PLAYER SKILL, is underpowered compared to a Demigod. This is mechanically. A Demigod has a slew of combat-related utility, and enhanced statistics - enhanced statistics that are needed for some classes to compete at a level that their archetypes were balanced around. I am not saying that Demigod is overpowered - I am saying that using Demigod as the standard of balance while also making its accessibility 'spike' up and down is completely unfair and faulty.

Are you honestly so concerned with making Demigod special that you would perpetuate the problem you experienced until you reached level 100?

My solutions for JUST statistics are as followed - picking one of these:

* Roll the statistics in to each race - either selectively or entirely. It doesn't matter to me. Roll them in to specializations if you must, I don't honestly give a damn so long as EVERYBODY gets them.

* Allow each 10 levels or 20 levels a player gains to 'unlock' a hardening of their statistics, letting them place a +2 base in to one of their stats of their choice. This effectively makes it so either: you must be level 50 to gain +2 in all stats (not counting size), or if it is 20 levels per, level 100 to gain all statistics gains. Pick either, honestly, I do not care. No class in this game requires high totals of every stat, meaning that people can get what they need IMMEDIATELY to render their classes viable instead of having to make a slow grind of 100 levels to do so.

* Cease cutting off tremendous flows of EXP that make the status accessible, and thus the idea of balancing around those benefits becomes more fair. Reduce the level of EXP needed to become a Demigod, make things give more experience - in general, speed it up. Demigod is no longer special. That is what Ascendant is for. What harm does having a larger population of Demigods honestly do? The stupid people will lose it, the lazy people won't have any essence or won't have the status at all, and those looking to be viable as certain archetypes will have the status easier so they can actually enjoy their investment.

EDIT: To the person who previously said Demigod statistics aren't 'gamebreaking', you have to be kidding. Post above mine is proof: "Since attaining demigod, I can build wounds effectively again- ". Due to the balancing of the game around Demigod stats, I would say that it has 'broken' the game for non-Demis. ;P

Demigod is game-changing, but it is hardly game-breaking. I know several people who hold their own against omnitrans demigods without the aid of their own demigodhood, all their skills, or artifacts.

It took me over five years to attain my demigodhood. I'm slow, but I made it. You can do the same, if you wish.

Take away demigod stat bonuses, sure. Make them more accessible to all, sure... as artifacts. Problem solved, since now anyone can buy their way to greatness and not have to grind all day to get it.

This is one of the few things you can earn in the game that cannot be bought, and it should be worth the earning, period.

Who says it should be worth earning? I don't buy that, and I surely don't buy the idea of making statistics artifacts an alternative to a long, time-consuming grind. Demigod should just be renamed, since honestly, I think people are attached to the idea of having powers to fit that name. As for those whom 'hold their own', their ability is the exception, not the rule.

What you are proposing is continuing to perpetuate an obvious balance problem people seem to just be willingly ignorant to - and providing a false solution in the form of "instead of time, you can invest money!". That is honestly a weak suggestion, but I guess it is one - but I don't think a lot of people would buy that, pardoning the pun.

EDIT: Besides, Warriors already have to buy a hell of a lot of runes, etc - do you really want to increase the entry cost to Warrior or even any archetype even FURTHER, monetarily, if people don't want to go grind to Demigod benefits?

I was (mostly) being facetious.

As for those who hold their own, it's simply because they dedicate time to learning how to fight well and gathering equipment. Perhaps that makes them 'exceptional' people, but there are plenty of buffs and boosts for anyone, demigod or not, and too many ignore a large number of them.

I will concede that there are a good number of buffs and boons, but I was under the impression that the base statistics of Demigods stacked with those - thus, assuming equal footing, buffs, etc, a Demigod STILL has more stats.

EDIT: Also, maintaining all of those to remain viable as a non-Demi seems, honestly, questionable.

I'm not just talking about stat buffs. I'm talking about things like enchantments, teas, brews, food, blessings, quests, org potions, even certain defenses... It's equipment easily available to anyone with a bit of time to earn and collect them, and every little bit helps. Most demigods/ascendants use these sorts of things to their advantage, and it seems to make them super-powerful in combat. The stat bonuses help, but they're only part of the picture.

I'd like to pop in and simply say that I do not believe some combat perks for demigods (or ascendants) is a game changer. The question for me is whether said perk is too much or not, but I am not of the Rodngar opinion that demigods should have all combat abilities stripped out and it should only be an RP title. Again, I am fine with some combat perks. I question whether the +1 stat is really as imbalancing as some make it to be, but feel free to continue to make your case. However, I'm not sure if we're being productive if we continue to argue whether or not demigods or ascendants should have any combat perks or not because clearly they will. BTW, we'll be listing the concrete suggestions and going over them, so the more concrete ideas, the better.

I agree with you. Demigod is a time-invested achievement that does affect ability to some degree. People can throw the line around that "people can fight against demis and more effectively" as much as they want to, but it doesn't change the fact that level 100 is inherently more useful than level 99.

But level 99 is inherently more useful than 98.
But level 98 is inherently more useful than 97.
etc.

The point is, with that line of reason, the best thing to do is have everyone at the same level to impose fairness and the game should be balanced around that. The game has to be balanced around the highest level by common sense, and the argument that it's disadvantage to people not demi is also common sense. It's just the way the game is, and demigod is achievable. There are at least 90 demigods within the game which is supposedly much higher than other IRE games for end-game achievements.

Divinefire: No comment really. I've only ever used it in PVE, but the arguments used against it could also be directed at serpent. It doesn't bother me.

Zap: No problem with this. Again, anyone that wants to make the argument that in excess it's too powerful, with enough people any damage skill is too powerful. To borrow from Guild Wars lingo/knowledge, the coordinated zaps are no more than a spike, and people can and have spiked in Lusternia with other skills that aren't common across archetypes. I'm wary at looking about changing a skill for this reason. It's not over abundantly powerful.

There needs to be some sort of perk for endgame. +1 to all stats is not imbalancing at all. That's what, +300-500 health/mana/ego? Divinefire might be the only issue I can really think of off-hand simply because it's an insta-escape in PvP. If instead of it curing all afflictions in a few seconds, it could function like old Divine Cure and cure one or two affs every ten to twelve seconds. That would make it so that it does not completely cancel out the offenses of classes and still makes it fairly worthwhile using.

Zap is also fine, as a note.

EDIT: Also, Demigod as only an RP title is dumb. That is all.

So you don't believe, say, the post above one of mine saying that a person's wound-building returned to viable upon becoming a Demigod? I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that it is almost a commonly accepted fact that viability of a Warrior is tightly tied to their level - either they are a Demigod or not, and the extra stats make enough of a difference to make the status close to mandatory. This is what I've been told time and time again when I consider going Warrior, and it isn't just from one person. How then can you say that the statistics don't make enough of a difference when you have anecdotal proof to prove otherwise?

I don't even think ALL combat abilities should be poached from the status - but I think +base statistics should, as it is obvious that it plays a HEAVY part in the viability of a single archetype and to not make that more easily accessible is sort of a bad idea. The statistics are used to figure in to the balance of classes in terms of damage, survivability, etc - this means that ANYBODY who is not a Demigod has less than what their classes, abilities, etc are balanced to be. Do you have a compelling argument in defense against making everybody capable of the same levels/threshold of wounding or damage, Demigod or not, when those levels of wounding/damage have been proven to at least be tolerable on a design level and are what the classes are meant to do?

To reiterate: I do not think Demigod should lose all their toys. I am simply lobbying for the removal of ONE of their toys - the improved statistics that make certain archetypes actually -viable- to fight as at top tier. Should top tier for Warriors or whomever honestly be defined as "you have all this, you have skill.. oh and you wasted the time to reach Demigod"? If that is what the standard is going to be, I'm going to continue arguing it should be changed, because people already invest the money and time to learn skills, get items, and learn what to do with them, why do they have to spend MORE time to reach an arbitrary level to be viable and balanced against everybody else and in a vacuum concerning their own skills?

Do you have any comment on my idea of taking statistics away from Demigods and simply giving it to players gradually?

It's not the health/mana/ego. It's the damage from INT or STR, the wounding from STR or DEX, etc. The stats of weapon aren't the only statistics that matter to a Warrior's wounding levels.

I'm not a Demigod and I've done decently well. Besides, Warriors are good when they have weapon runes. Sure, Demigod makes them slightly better. Though I think you're over-exaggerating on how much of a boost they really get. It's the tertiaries and weapon runes that make the difference.

EDIT: Hitting TAB then ENTER while typing a post is a bad idea, blargh. Was only half done with that.

You are willingly putting yourself at a handicap, and you're also not acknowledging the fact that Demigod stats are what your damage and wounding formulas are balanced on. Weapon runes are one factor. Stats are another.

If you aren't a Demigod, you are underpowered on a sheer mathematical scale. Individual player skill has no bearing in this discussion - numerically, a Demigod is stronger given equal weapons, runes, etc.

What?

Where are you basing this information from. If you're telling me that +1 stats somehow is better than Weapon Aura, Stat Runes, Elemental Runes, Lichdom, DMP from Nightkiss/Drawdown, than I seriously doubt your credibility.

EDIT: Not to mention, there's a soft cap at 20 Strength. Even if a Demigod and a normal Human Warrior were compared, it's not hard for either to hit that cap (say for an Ur'guard). And even if the Demigod had 22 Strength compared to the Warrior with 20, there is not that much of a difference.

No one would argue that a demigod compared to a non-demigod, with everything else equal, will come out stronger. You're simply putting too much weight on how important the stat bonuses are in this formula of yours.

Anecdotal proof isn't really proof! Anyway, I would need a little more hard facts but, even if true, you're arguing that one effect from one stat that affects one archetype is justification to remove the +1 stat for all demigods. It would make more sense to me to look at wound-building. If the wound building wasn't a factor (either by proof or by tweak), would your argument hold? Keep in mind, we already adjusted stats once before so higher stats give diminishing returns. (Not sure if you were aware of that.)



I don't really understand the idea. The longer you play, the higher your stats rise? Not sure if I like that idea.

I am arguing that statistics play a part, not that they are MORE important. Placing those statistics at a level that is grueling to reach is unfair to everybody else, considering that other people have stated that those statistics have made their wounding 'viable' again

Why is it not fair that the players that have worked their arses off to achieve endgame to receive some sort of benefit to it? It sounds more like your issue is with warriors at lower levels rather than endgame warriors. That's not a reason to nerf endgame.

Please see my above post.