Sylphas2010-03-23 18:31:00
QUOTE (Nienla @ Mar 23 2010, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Demigod technically is a possibility for everyone. There's nothing mechanically wise prohibiting you from achieving it. Only you.
Thank you for repeating what I just said and adding nothing to the discussion.
I'm wondering now, as someone aspiring to demigod, why warriors get bonus strength for size, but I won't get any stat buffs beyond the base if I do achieve demi. Why does the size to str/dex modifier even exist?
Unknown2010-03-23 18:32:13
I actually agree with Rodngar. Making it so you don't need demigod to play competitively as a warrior is only a good thing (Akui's anecdote about 'finally' building wounds supports this). I would prefer readjusting the formula again than simply leaving demigod as is. One day, perhaps adjustments can even be done with weaponrunes. Then warriors can compete without needing weaponrunes/demigod/whatever. So in essence, I'm saying 'fine nerf stats but fix the formula/etc. too'. Btw, the sizechange is important here, which probably is also part of the reason why +stats in general is broken, so I'd prefer you consider the sizechange ability and stats together.
I also do think that +stats are far more valuable than individual skills, given the games a seeming underlying belief of 'unique > balanced'. On top of that, everyone can get +stats, not everyone can get x OP skill. Additionally, skills can be tweaked far more often, stat tweaking comes only once in a blue moon. Of course I'm not saying that +stats/sizechange are the biggest reason why things are broken, though I acknowledge that they're a factor.
I also do think that +stats are far more valuable than individual skills, given the games a seeming underlying belief of 'unique > balanced'. On top of that, everyone can get +stats, not everyone can get x OP skill. Additionally, skills can be tweaked far more often, stat tweaking comes only once in a blue moon. Of course I'm not saying that +stats/sizechange are the biggest reason why things are broken, though I acknowledge that they're a factor.
Xenthos2010-03-23 18:32:40
QUOTE (Sylphas @ Mar 23 2010, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thank you for repeating what I just said and adding nothing to the discussion.
I'm wondering now, as someone aspiring to demigod, why warriors get bonus strength for size, but I won't get any stat buffs beyond the base if I do achieve demi. Why does the size to str/dex modifier even exist?
I'm wondering now, as someone aspiring to demigod, why warriors get bonus strength for size, but I won't get any stat buffs beyond the base if I do achieve demi. Why does the size to str/dex modifier even exist?
It exists to give Size some kind of meaning, after the last time size was nerfed.
It's fine for everyone but warriors, really. In terms of warriors, it just means that warrior wounding gets balanced around being a larger size, because that's a standard "buff" for warrior combatants (the +3 weight from size and the +2 base from Demigod itself).
Estarra2010-03-23 18:32:47
This thread is to continue the discussion on demigods and stats so the demigod/ascendant overview thread won't be dominated by that issue.
Rodngar2010-03-23 18:34:42
QUOTE (Talan @ Mar 23 2010, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Rodngar - You're the only person I've heard really complain in a long while that demigod is too hard to get. There are 94 demis/ascendants, and another 15 titans on the doorstep. Between achievements and recurring double xp events, let alone the ludicrous/delightful combination of the two - if you earnestly believe that demigod is still some distant, unattainable thing, well, you're just plain not trying.
Your posts here come off like indignant rants that one aspect of the game, albeit a large one, ie. pvp combat, requires you to *gasp* spend time improving your character. Which is to say - playing the game. The grind of leveling up is not exactly a concept unique to Lusternia - in fact given influence and aethercraft, I'd say Lusternia is doing an above-average job of creating varied activities to engage in to progress your character. Lusternia has levels. That is the type of game that it is. But it also already accommodates you if you wish to experience progressive stat boosts as you level -- play a human character.
I can't help but feel like you've just missed the point of this thread/issue completely. There are literally so many people at the top that we now have to find more outlets for their achievement. Estarra has stated that she does not wish it to be VA, so we are trying to find a fairly fluffy solution that gives end-gamers something to dither away their essence on that does not continue to give them huge buffs for combat, while fixing anything glaringly OP in the same field along the way.
Your posts here come off like indignant rants that one aspect of the game, albeit a large one, ie. pvp combat, requires you to *gasp* spend time improving your character. Which is to say - playing the game. The grind of leveling up is not exactly a concept unique to Lusternia - in fact given influence and aethercraft, I'd say Lusternia is doing an above-average job of creating varied activities to engage in to progress your character. Lusternia has levels. That is the type of game that it is. But it also already accommodates you if you wish to experience progressive stat boosts as you level -- play a human character.
I can't help but feel like you've just missed the point of this thread/issue completely. There are literally so many people at the top that we now have to find more outlets for their achievement. Estarra has stated that she does not wish it to be VA, so we are trying to find a fairly fluffy solution that gives end-gamers something to dither away their essence on that does not continue to give them huge buffs for combat, while fixing anything glaringly OP in the same field along the way.
I play Human.
I don't think Demigod is distant and unattainable, but honestly, the path to it is nothing but a hassle to me. I don't think 'sitting on a module' or 'influencing with triggers while I watch it' or 'bashing with triggers while I watch it' really counts as 'playing the game'. I call that a time investment, and that time I'm investing I feel like I'm really not seeing any returns on. It's why I'd favor some of the benefits coming earlier - at least the stats, anyways. I have no issue with investing time to learn how to PK (I did it in Imperian), or coding a system (I did it in Imperian), or buying vials (you get the point) - I enjoyed those things immensely. However, in Imperian, I did not feel the immense pressure to get Aspect like I do here in regards to Demigod, because honestly, the benefits of Aspect were not used as a standard balance level.
Xenthos2010-03-23 18:36:07
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 23 2010, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This thread is to continue the discussion on demigods and stats so the demigod/ascendant overview thread won't be dominated by that issue.
Sojiro's post doesn't belong here, I think. At least the quoted part.
Eh, maybe he should just repost that part in the other thread.
Xavius2010-03-23 18:54:00
The fact that there are warriors who take lowmagic without many tears should be proof enough that +1 to strength is actually fairly trivial. If you're worried about dex, you could ask how the Stag Serenguard feel about not having Drawdown.
Barring that, you could stop talking circles around each other and post numbers without making me re-equip a neglected warrior alt.
Barring that, you could stop talking circles around each other and post numbers without making me re-equip a neglected warrior alt.
Unknown2010-03-23 19:02:44
INT+ from demi is usually rather moot, since most magic classes don't damage kill anyways, and those that can (certain mages) get it from their damage source(s) and potential damage buffs.
CHA+ is moot.
CON+ is always nice, but is definitely not a show stopper on its own.
In regards to warrior and demigod (thus DEX and STR): I've talked to plenty of people in my time who aim for demi because they can't afford runes, and see obtaining demi as a lot more feasible and realistic than coughing up the cash for the CR they feel they'd otherwise need. I could care less either way at this point, but hey, you can cut it either way. Just because you remove it doesn't mean it will be fixed, and just because you break it doesn't mean the administration will have the time and resources to address it, and just because you think it is keen doesn't mean it won't make other people feel as though they are so utterly broken that they may as well just change classes, because it would be cheaper than dealing with the hand you've dealt them.
CHA+ is moot.
CON+ is always nice, but is definitely not a show stopper on its own.
In regards to warrior and demigod (thus DEX and STR): I've talked to plenty of people in my time who aim for demi because they can't afford runes, and see obtaining demi as a lot more feasible and realistic than coughing up the cash for the CR they feel they'd otherwise need. I could care less either way at this point, but hey, you can cut it either way. Just because you remove it doesn't mean it will be fixed, and just because you break it doesn't mean the administration will have the time and resources to address it, and just because you think it is keen doesn't mean it won't make other people feel as though they are so utterly broken that they may as well just change classes, because it would be cheaper than dealing with the hand you've dealt them.
Unknown2010-03-23 20:46:30
Just leave the stat boost at demi in place, and don't screw around with it. So much gets balanced around it, we don't need to take a hatchet to knight forumlae and weapon stats yet again.
Occam's razor. The simplest solution is usually the best one.
If I can get demi, anyone can manage it. Granted, I had help from aetherspace, but seriously. Its easier to balance around demi because its the status quo, than try and spin plates on poles.
Occam's razor. The simplest solution is usually the best one.
If I can get demi, anyone can manage it. Granted, I had help from aetherspace, but seriously. Its easier to balance around demi because its the status quo, than try and spin plates on poles.
Eventru2010-03-23 21:31:28
QUOTE (Rainydays @ Mar 23 2010, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just leave the stat boost at demi in place, and don't screw around with it. So much gets balanced around it, we don't need to take a hatchet to knight forumlae and weapon stats yet again.
Occam's razor. The simplest solution is usually the best one.
If I can get demi, anyone can manage it. Granted, I had help from aetherspace, but seriously. Its easier to balance around demi because its the status quo, than try and spin plates on poles.
Occam's razor. The simplest solution is usually the best one.
If I can get demi, anyone can manage it. Granted, I had help from aetherspace, but seriously. Its easier to balance around demi because its the status quo, than try and spin plates on poles.
I don't think combat should be balanced around having demigod. If something about demigod is making it a requirement for a class in combat, then demigod needs to be looked at. I think it's been said that it's more stats and size-change that affects demigod knights so much - if that's true, then maybe size change needs to be looked at?
If 'nerfing' demigods is going to make knights useless, then maybe knights need to be looked at. I don't know, I'm just going from what you all are sating!
Unknown2010-03-23 21:34:44
Cap HP/MP/Ego gain at level 80, 85 or 90... and I think things would work out much better 
IRE's combat systems have always worked better when the numbers are smaller for whatever reason!
IRE's combat systems have always worked better when the numbers are smaller for whatever reason!
Unknown2010-03-23 21:36:51
QUOTE (Eventru @ Mar 23 2010, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think combat should be balanced around having demigod. If something about demigod is making it a requirement for a class in combat, then demigod needs to be looked at. I think it's been said that it's more stats and size-change that affects demigod knights so much - if that's true, then maybe size change needs to be looked at?
If 'nerfing' demigods is going to make knights useless, then maybe knights need to be looked at. I don't know, I'm just going from what you all are sating!
If 'nerfing' demigods is going to make knights useless, then maybe knights need to be looked at. I don't know, I'm just going from what you all are sating!
Its something like this.
I started the game as an unartied, aslaran pureblade. I could build wounds on non-masterplated knights and robe wearers, using an xx/500+/180+ greatsword.
Stat revamp happens. Suddenly, greatswords are crap. I consult with knights who know what the heck they're doing and go speed-wounder.
From that revamp, through the others that happened, until I got demi, I had all sorts of problems building wounds.
I got demi, suddenly, I'm able to build wounds.
I increased size to 25, so unmodified stats as orclach are STR 19 DEX 13
Rodngar2010-03-23 21:41:06
This is why I support giving the stats to players progressively through the levels - every 10 or 15 or 20 levels, a player gets another base bonus, representative of their travels through the world.
Talan2010-03-23 22:06:17
QUOTE (Eventru @ Mar 23 2010, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think combat should be balanced around having demigod. If something about demigod is making it a requirement for a class in combat, then demigod needs to be looked at. I think it's been said that it's more stats and size-change that affects demigod knights so much - if that's true, then maybe size change needs to be looked at?
If 'nerfing' demigods is going to make knights useless, then maybe knights need to be looked at. I don't know, I'm just going from what you all are sating!
If 'nerfing' demigods is going to make knights useless, then maybe knights need to be looked at. I don't know, I'm just going from what you all are sating!
You seem to be saying different things in these two paragraphs, and I think you're right the second time. If warriors as demigods are doing alright, and warriors as not-demigods are having trouble executing the basic precept of their offense, then this seems to indicate the problem is the factors that str/dex play in the wounding formula, not with the stats themselves. The increased stats should result in a slight boost, not the difference between basic functionality of the class.
Still not in favor of ditching the stat boosts as the final rewards for levels 99 and 100. Since the proposals in the other thread seem to be leaning toward a la carte demi powers this is seeming more and more extreme. The goal is to ditch the things that are strictly over-powering, not to level the entire playing field by removing the bonus rewards for bothering to get demi entirely.
Rodngar2010-03-23 22:09:21
I don't get why Demigod confers benefits that have such a bearing on combat that an archetype does well when they have them, but really does not do so hot without them.
All I'm asking for is that the stats be gotten some other way - my preferred proposal would be gaining them gradually as you level. Demigod can keep everything else and whatever else you throw at them.
All I'm asking for is that the stats be gotten some other way - my preferred proposal would be gaining them gradually as you level. Demigod can keep everything else and whatever else you throw at them.
Talan2010-03-23 22:20:28
QUOTE (Rodngar @ Mar 23 2010, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't get why Demigod confers benefits that have such a bearing on combat that an archetype does well when they have them, but really does not do so hot without them.
All I'm asking for is that the stats be gotten some other way - my preferred proposal would be gaining them gradually as you level. Demigod can keep everything else and whatever else you throw at them.
All I'm asking for is that the stats be gotten some other way - my preferred proposal would be gaining them gradually as you level. Demigod can keep everything else and whatever else you throw at them.
Man, if you don't see why "demigod" implies some edge over "mortal" then I am at a bit of a loss. Further, can you go ahead and reread the first bit of my last post? Specifically the part about how if a class's offense is not viable at all without stat buffs only available to demis, then that seems like a separate issue.
You're asking that stats be gotten some other way, but the justification you're holding up for this request is an unrelated problem. From the points you've reiterated it seems as though your stance is, "I can't make it to the end - please give me a part of the reward I would have had now." If at the end, demi will have the same stats they have now, what is the point of the change?
Eventru2010-03-23 22:21:20
QUOTE (Talan @ Mar 23 2010, 06:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You seem to be saying different things in these two paragraphs, and I think you're right the second time.
I thought I was saying the same thing. Demigod should not make a class viable - the class should be workable and balanced without demigod. If the only way a knight is effective is demigod, then I'd think the problem is knights, and the fact demigod has too much of an effect on them.
Rodngar2010-03-23 22:23:31
QUOTE (Talan @ Mar 23 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Man, if you don't see why "demigod" implies some edge over "mortal" than I am at a bit of a loss. Further, can you go ahead and reread the first bit of my last post? Specifically the part about how if a class's offense is not viable at all without stat buffs only available to demis, then that seems like a separate issue.
Roleplay < Mechanics. Just because you're called a Demigod doesn't mean you deserve some kind of mechanical edge over others.
QUOTE
You're asking that stats be gotten some other way, but the justification you're holding up for this request is an unrelated problem. From the points you've reiterated it seems as though your stance is, "I can't make it to the end - please give me a part of the reward I would have had now." If at the end, demi will have the same stats they have now, what is the point of the change?
The point is that EVERYBODY will have the stats, not just Demigods. To be honest, I value my time playing this game more than most people, as I have other things I can do - I'm level 85 and rising. I don't think my time is well spent grinding when the point of the grind - level 100 - should NEVER confer the benefits it does anyways.
EDIT: Attacking my supposed laziness in lieu of thinking up a good point to why Demigod shouldn't be changed, btw?
Eventru2010-03-23 22:24:32
Please keep the tone upbeat and not get pointy and jabby. It really kills the atmosphere. 
Rodngar2010-03-23 22:26:18
QUOTE (Eventru @ Mar 23 2010, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Please keep the tone upbeat and not get pointy and jabby. It really kills the atmosphere.
Hey, this is surprisingly civil considering my history.
