I think it knocking you off balance for a few seconds would be strong enough, even if they then focus anyway. They've still been hit with a fairly significant malus. Adding in a mana drain would just be overkill, especially if it procs 70% of the time on focus mind and the guardians do get a manakill (which seems likely. The insanity/timewarp kills are in the rituals skillset). Focus mind will still be reserved for when it's needed, as it would be impossible (or at least very difficult) to maintain an offense in that level of balanceloss.

Keep in mind this is an incurable aff you can give to all enemies in your room for 3p. Having it effectively utterly lock out one of the main methods of curing for all those people would be a bit over the top.

Did you completely not read the posted "log" of what would happen with no malus on focusmind with just a fix to balance loss stacking? Focus mind can be kept in reserve now. I barely get affected by badluck procs because my system doesn't use focusmind when I have badluck. However, if the balance stacking alone is touched then you can sure as hell bet I will be using focus mind, everytime I hit a balance loss proc, I will system spam it till it succeeds, because I can with no worry of it affecting me, period.

Snafu, by the way, is a room effect. Leave room and no badluck you don't give it to all your enemies. You give it to the room and I am not sure that the proc rates are even the same on snafu as they are on badluck.

You think of that skill in a vacuum don't you? You don't consider anything else when you are thinking what a change to it not stacking with itself would mean. You also do not consider that the fact that it hinders actions (not just focus mind) itself is a boon too, nor do you consider the fact that it hindering actions stacks with stupidity. You also don't seem to consider that with the aid of BadLuck and the mechanics on how TempInsanity/TimeWarp are cured, you can do some great combination of things if you know how. I did give you some examples though, so I can only guess you are dutifully ignoring what I have written, or you just could not understand it. Either way, it is a waste of my time trying to explain it all again in the face of your log that considers nothing else but one fragment of the issue.

Though, one funny thing that your log does show is the very high failure rate on using focus mind (about 70%) while under the effects of BadLuck, which effectively still shuts down focus mind as a means of curing TempInsanity and other mental afflictions. Would be great if you also showed how it can fire on aggressive actions (about 35% of the time) and other actions like even clotting. That would show that BadLuck does not just work on Focus Mind, but also works to hinder other actions too, stealing balance on those also.

If you just remove balance loss stacking, it turns into "use focus mind, lose balance" instead of "something close to incurable impatience". It's still a drawback to using focus mind, even if you can spam it until it succeeds. Whether that's enough, I dunno, I'm not enough of a fighter to make that call. But Gregori is trying to make it sound like removing the balance stacking will make the skill utterly worthless, and I don't see how he can be right.

Yeah you are right, I don't think about any of those things.. That's probably why I switched to bonecrusher and I use dulak. *shrug* The only person thinking in a vacuum here is yourself.

That "log" was a made up log of extreme failure to illustrate a distinct point. Your "fix" might as well be "when balance loss procs on badluck, cure 1 insanity level" because that is what your fix means. I can spam focus mind a whole hell of a lot in 3 seconds in order to get it to go through. I don't know if you are being 'daft' or just intentionally missing that point.

The reason there is only one fragment of the issue there, is because that is the important fragment. Free reign to cure off an insanity tic is the important part.

Because if you don't have some way of punishing the spamming which in this case is a very high balance loss if you just spam focus mind. Then you just have to swallow the 3 second balance loss and hammer on the focus mind until it fires

As has been pointed out, Badluck procs on more than focus mind, the proposed change to just balance stacking means though that when it does proc, regardless of what procs it, you have 3 seconds of free un-malused ability to get a focusmind through - curing insanity or a mental aff. You know.. those things that Geb keeps trying to say you work to stack.

Does it make the skill worthless? No, and nobody said that. What it does do is make it easy to spam off a focus mind burst with no worry of losing mana or focus balance unless it succeeds, meaning everytime you lose balance on a badluck proc, you get to reduce your insanity.

I'm still not seeing why adding a 3s balance loss to almost every focus mind isn't good enough. You seem to want an uncurable way to totally disable focus mind.

EDIT: That's not me trying to be dismissive, I'd really like someone to explain why that's not good enough. It sounds pretty awesome to me.

Oh, so it is not 1 second, it is 3 seconds? I knew it felt longer than 1 second, but I did not have my timer up to check. 3 seconds is a significant balance loss. So what if they hammer on focus mind to cure, which will fail a lot by the way, when they still will lose 3 seconds on the first attempt that fails. Add also in the fact that it does not just fire on focus mind, you also have a chance of it firing again when they try to perform some other action while on balance (35% chance on aggressive actions I hear). You have a very good passive hindering skill even without the balance loss stacking with itself (or even with it not stacking with anything else since it is 3 seconds not 1).

It'd be cool if badluck took your combat setup into account in some form that you could counter, by "taking luck out of the equation." That whole idea is one of my favorite concepts Here's some example ideas:

Got an empty pipe in your inventory? How did that weed get in there?

Empty vials? Where did that booze come from? Should have put those in your pack! Better try to sip healing again too.

Sometimes you mess up outrifting things, but if you outriffed your cures ahead of time, that won't happen.

You probably should keep that tinderbox in your pack!

This is what you get for keeping your personal journal out in the open like that. It might fall into someone's hands and when they read it, they might start laughing at you while you scramble to get it back.

Salt packets, we already have that.

Your beast wasn't fully fed? Now it's getting stubborn...

I really need to buy that artifact waves/quakes/etc. ring.

Wow, it sure is windy up here!

Get what I'm saying?

The change in question is to make it so that there isn't a 3 second balance loss on almost every focus mind/every other action, by making you immune to balance loss if you are already suffering it, so that it can't stack with itself. So the first time you fail you suffer 3 seconds of balance loss, but you can just keep spamming focus mind at that point with no cost/penalty until it goes through. That's the part that is in dispute.

It doesn't even matter if every action has a 70% chance to cause a balance loss, the fact you can immediately spam a cure to cure insanity (the whole thing badluck is meant to hinder you being able to do) is a bad thing. All we are saying is that you should not be able to spam focus mind on a balance loss, because that is what (going by the high fail rate numbers on focus mind) badluck is meant to hinder the most.

Maybe this is just not being explained right, I dunno. However, as it stands right now if only the balance was changed then focus mind would just be instantly hammered everytime badluck procced a 3 second balance loss, because you have a 3 second immunity to badluck - balance loss - procs at that point. Effectively giving you a free insanity level cure, because it won't cost you anything unless it succeeds and it costs you nothing to fail in that 3 seconds.

It's ability to hinder or what not is not even in question we already know it is good for hindering offense, nobody has even argued that, but giving people a free license to spam a cure until it succeeds that is the cure for the most important aspect of the skillset (insanity) is just stupidity at best. Offense and defense though run side by side, it's not one or the other, so even if you are off balance for 3 seconds your defense is not hindered in any way. Even assuming the balance loss was due to a focus mind your defense is not hindered in any way because you would be able to just -instantly- focus mind again and keep doing so until it works.

Well... this kind of sounds like arguments for recessional.

The counterargument being "aeon" (with PrincessFarewell and / or tarot).

I wonder if Illuminati will get Tarot. Not being able to focus mind in aeon could be "fun", especially if somehow anorexia is able to get applied by these Illuminati...

Doesn't help much for warriors really, and it's nothing but speculation of course. Still, it's fun to speculate! Mostly just to point out that even if it was made to have no other malus there are situations where it could still be very powerful, those situations being any time where you are slowed and unable to spam a command.

Like, say, if you're choked; badluck the choker?

Just as a point of interest, Aliod's numbers are wrong.

Test 1: 150 focus minds - 55 fails
Test 2: 150 focus minds - 51 fails
Test 3: 200 focus minds - 64 fails

It's alot closer to 33% than 70%.

edit:: and snafu is about the same proc rate.

That is what I get for small number tests *weep*

I'll go back to my corner now

It's ok I found a better use for badluck... sip anatine;Shift badluck me; #150 focus mind; watch everyone get DC'd... I WIN!! \\o/

Valid strategy. Same purpose as Reality, no? When no one gets where they want to go and about half the people are on Astral, defenders included, the raid is over!

I agree, let's take our pitchforks and torches to Reality now *pitchfork*

Can you pinleg with a pitchfork?

Sadly reality is only good if one situation happens and if that situation is happening enough to make reality work then there isn't many people in there to hit anyways.

Anyways, testing badluck - 1 minute timer, swinging on myself as often as I can. I am a BC so that means 2 chances to proc each time.

test 1: 30 swings - 8 fails
test 2: 25 swings - 10 fails
test 3: 28 swings - 6 fails

Again close enough to 33% to call it as such for offensive actions.