Pfft. Elder gods got munched on. Vernal gods saved the world

Only after we loosened 'em up!

I've actually often wondered how the Vernals managed to pull off what the Elder's couldn't, when they were younger and less experienced (recall Eventru describing Dionamus' spire as amateurish, or something like that) , probably lesser in number, and the Soulless had consumed a lot more essence then they had in the Elder Wars.

Vernal Gods > Elder Gods.

It's cause they formed Captain Pla-I mean, Avechna, but the Elders did not.

Even before Avechna, they managed to trick and imprison all but the most powerful Soulless.

The Elder Wars said there were a lot of Soulless that were apart of the initially attack - remember that Lacostian and Elcyrion killed one on their own even (as was revealed during Elcyrion's release event). There were probably a lot of lesser soulless out there. The Vernal Gods only had to contend with 5 big ones, as far as we're aware. And there were probably a lot more Vernal Gods popping around during the real heat of the Vernal Wars - remember the Elder Gods were caught relatively unaware (250 or so First Circle were wiped out entirely in the Soulless' first strike, and who knows how many died in the counter-attack).

Also, only nine Vernal Gods actually survived to see the end of the Vernal Wars - and even they died to finish the fight. And they were the creme de la creme - I imagine there were many who were much weaker, or died very quickly. They also had an advantage the Elders didn't - there was nothing else interesting to the Soulless but the Elders, really. They wanted to nom on some Gods, and they weren't going to take no for an answer. During the Vernal Wars, there were countless civilizations of mortals they could eat - and probably would get sidetracked going after.

Different circumstances, to be sure! I don't think it's something you can really compare - I imagine Vernal Gods were probably on the same 'level' as Elder Gods, in terms of potential.

Edit: Look at you! Getting me caught up in lusternia history. Bad!

Some points there I hadn't considered before for sure!

Though still, did none of the Elders ever think of burying Crazen in a crater before? Suppose there's probably more to Shanth's trap then we can get out of that little excerpt from the histories we have, but I still can't imagine something a single Vernal pulled off being beyond what the Elders could do.

Also I apologize for nothing!

EDIT: Though thinking about it now, suppose there's nothing saying that the Elder's never did trap any of the big Soulless at some point.

With so much of the Elder Wars still to come, I imagine we're going to see the fighting go in all kinds of directions we haven't seen yet. I expect there'll be some really big fights that eliminate 90% of the Soulless (and 90% of the strength of those Soulless that survive), while they're eliminating 90% of the Elder Gods (and probably leaving those who remain far weaker, in confidence if not in physical power). I always imagined the Vernal Wars will eventually feel like the post-apocalyptic World War 4, the pitiful survivors of nuclear armageddon squabbling over the remaining canned food in the burned-out husks of buildings they can't even imagine building.

Heck, we still haven't even read about the first sharding. There's just such a delicious variety of things yet to be seen that we know about. It's amazing to imagine how much there is we don't know about yet.

They certainly did! Where do you think the illithoid came from? An Elder Goddess ripped a Soulless in half and wrapped it up and imprisoned it.

This is true, but the histories indicate that the Soulless just munched up any dead to make themselves stronger. So instead of having a chump-bunch of Soulless, they had to contend with all the other soulless AND most of the gods, all in 5 ginormous packages.

The vernals won because they were awesome and heroic, duh.

Who's the vernal goddess npc that isn't Marilynth?

Well in some ways, a small set of really really powerful beings, could be easier to deal with then a whole ton of powerful beings.

Also at Eventru, Keph was one of the primal gods! That's a whole different thing. None of the star gods would have been able to go head to head with Illith like she did.

I thought Keph had help on initially imprisoning Illith or something.

Far as we know, she managed to single handedly rip Illith in half and make her retreat back to the surface, but had been dealt mortal wounds, then before she died she built the Seal of Keph and splintered into the Kephera.

Ask me, I wrote a book on that one!

Hai. You called?

Also, on this entire discussion, I find myself agreeing with Eventru (yes, there'll be dancing in the streets tonight). The situations of the Elder wars and the Vernal wars are probably not comparable, for eseveral reasons, including the ones that eventru named.

Also, anyone who has ever played Team Fortress 2 will know that as soon as there is a line, it becomes impossible to play scout. This is exactly what happened during the Elder wars, there were simply too many of them for any kind of specific tactics: if you set up a plan to trick one of the soulless into a trap and halfway through his brother comes along and omnomnoms team trapper from behind while they're focused on their tactic, that doesn't really make a very viable strategy.

The point Eventru makes about there being Civilizations is also a very good one: the Elders really had very few places they could recuperate, and when they did there was the constant thread of a soulless coming past: after all, the soulless had nothing else to munch on so they were constantly hunting Elders. During the Vernal wars, the Vernal could simply distance himself a few miles and the soulless would shrug and go back to its juicy apple called Climanti/Glomborolum/Grimkeep/Ghalphalshi/Alabellalum/etc.

Related question:

If Vernal Gods > Vernal Ascendants, then why do we have Ascendants who have 0 essence still living but Marilynth's just a ghost? D:

Yeah, I did consider the fact that Ascendants get the awesome Ascendance skill, but...

Because we can't "die" thanks to the fates. Marylynth did something a little more excessive than how we die. She sacrificed her godhood to destroy the old pool of stars, remember?

You know, as much as I love these discussions (and I do, Elostian and I are both pretty notorious for sinking into it, and often take turns citing references from histories to each other over very insignificant details), it's probably something that'd best play out IG. Would be nice to see a lovely scholarly piece come across the library review system with theories as to some or all of these topics - divinity, vernal ascendants vs vernal gods, why Vernal Gods are 'better' than Elder Gods (or the differences in the type of conflict they'd have faced and why the Vernal Gods succeeded where the Elders didn't, etc). I can even see a Nihilist producing some libelous piece slandering Shanth, claiming he never really trapped Crazen but instead ran like a ninny until Crazen tripped and fell into a hole and couldn't get up, or something rather amusing.

Edit: And demigods/ascendants no longer visit the Fates - they're outside their realm of snipping the proverbial thread so to speak. At least, they're a lot harder to kill than mere mortals.