Well Eventru wasn't wrong, the big woman herself said that being all buddy buddy with Scorpion was fine, but they still needed to show some respect and reverence to the other Wyrdededed spirits or consequences would happen.

His post didn't, imo, say "hey you guys need to show a little more respect to your great spirits" it was more like "you keep like this and things are changing!" Which in a way is right but it makes you, if you're apart of the group, seriously worried about something happening and it doesn't say exactly what you're doing wrong/what you need to change. Atleast that's how I read the post.

The way it read, being buddy-buddy with Scorpion was not fine... which is what caused the issue. Given Estarra / Nocht's clarifications, there really is no problem; nor should there be any problem with Lamella responding to the word "Nekotai" (as the contradiction Eventru was referring to is actually a player-written help file apparently).

I read a number of the help files and have been following some of these recent Nekotai threads, and I never got the impression that Scorpion was a Glomdoring spirit. Quite the opposite in fact. They say that Scorpion taught them some (not all) of his skills as part of a pact. If he was a Glomdoring spirit, I think he would have taught them the skills for free or taught them in their entirety, no?

Glomdoring can worship whatever they want, denial is part of their RP as it is. Some people just take that IC denial OOC and complain when their made up reality where every single thing is hunky dory for them and leads to them winning everything, doesn't mesh with the real one, and it's laughable.

I sense forum-RP here, since this RP has absolutely nothing to do with anyone "winning everything" or even winning anything at all.

Would you like to actually discuss the topic on hand?

The second paragraph was a generalized statement about Glomdoring of course, but I think the first sentence about denial was clearly relevant since that's what some people from Glomdoring would be doing if they want to pretend that Scorpion is part of the commune. The first paragraph is as on-point as possible.

I'd further add that if the Nekotai seem "tacked on," that's not necessarily a bad thing, even if some members don't like it. Consider that the guild arrived with a new race taught skills by an outsider, and were accepted, then aren't they by definition supposed to be "tacked on" to Glomdoring. Phrasing their inclusion in a negative way doesn't change the fact that they were undeniably an addition as opposed to an original guild and their history would unavoidably reflect their origins.

When you worship a living entity that is not affiliated with you and may not share your interests, you may be inviting trouble. This is all that I read into admin's statements on the matter. The "winning everything" part has to do with the fact that some Glomdoring players want to deny this elementary principle.

There's a significant difference between being "part of the Commune" (which Scorpion is not), and being an important formative influence (which, well... it definitely is). The Nekotai would not even exist without Scorpion. As such, much of their roleplay / direction is built upon the ties to Scorpion.

This should not be surprising.

Glomdoring further wanting to have that guild mesh in with the Glomdoring as a whole should also not be surprising. Does anyone expect Grandmother Scorpion to move to Glomdoring? Absolutely not, which is why I think the forum-RP lines about wanting to "win everything" are out of place. Can we work towards an atmosphere where our members are able to have their bond to their beginnings? I'd sure hope so.

This entire thread began when we were told that we could not, flat-out.

Estarra's and Nocht's responses are just fine, though; that is how things are at the moment (which is, again, why I feel like you're out of line with your statements as you aren't even a part of this whole thing), so there is no issue. Nor should there be an issue with Lamella continuing to say what she has all along, I feel!

Edit: And really, I don't feel like Nekotai are "tacked on" because they actually do have their own place / part / whatever in Glomdoring at this point. Other Monk guilds seem to have a heck of a lot more issues with this.

But the admin didn't tell you that you couldn't do it. They told you that bad things could come of it if you did, and you took this to mean that you couldn't do it. That's where you started to rail against the elementary fact that if you worship something that doesn't share your interests, bad things might happen.

Yes... when you tell us that bad things will come of doing things the way we're doing them, that is in fact telling us not to do them.

When people a bit closer to home (ie, Nocht) tell us we're doing just fine as-is, then there is no problem.

Someone saying that you cannot do something is different than someone saying "if you do this, there will be consequences." In the former case, you cannot do it, in the latter case, you're welcome to do it and accept the consequences. When those consequences are based upon basic principles of motivation and affiliation, as here, to complain about the consequences is just to deny reality.

Heh. That's not how it actually works here. In Lusternia, "Consequences for actions" tend to be things like, I don't know, killing Crow and setting the forest on fire if you don't help some random stranger sending you dreams in the middle of the night because you suspect their motives . The Admin have some very, very hefty sticks at their disposal to make you not do something should they decide you should not be doing it; they are not afraid to use these sticks.

Further, we're told that we're doing just fine as-is, so I really don't get what you're talking about.

Your complaining about elementary motivations of characters may lead to a retconn in the storyline, or keep Scorpion from becoming a full, 3-dimensional character, or maybe even change the future course of roleplay events to match your dream scenario. It doesn't change the fact that your habit of denying such basic things as "worshiping an outsider the same as if they were your Gods is dangerous" is deeply flawed.

See, my question now is... this is supposed to be a world that we, as characters, can shape. Why should the story line be set in stone? (Of course, we already know it's not; things are in flux as Estarra comes up with ideas, sees something neat, and so on). Players can, in fact, make changes based on their "dreams" (that is the entire point of scholarly works, in fact!)

How is that deeply flawed? Isn't the entire point of playing a MUD that you can actually exert some control over how things will develop and grow, not being locked into a specific "The Vision™" storyline?

There are issues if you stray too far outside of it; there are also issues when being told you aren't supposed to stray at all. There needs to be room for flexibility, and apparently there is.

Determining how things will in the future develop is not the same as complaining about natural IC consequences stemming from how things already developed in the past, which is what you are doing if you take issue with the possibility that Scorpion may decide it's in his best interests to sting you in some future event, which is a very valid possibility since he's not one of you.

Which is not the same as being told there definitely will be consequences for doing things the way you've been doing them for over a RL year without anyone bothering to tell you that you were stepping out of line when you started (and had administrative approval for at the time).

As others said slightly before you got in here, this really exploded when we were getting statements like "Bad Things will definitely happen" which is, in the context of Lusternia, telling us we need to "stop doing them".

The time for IC consequences for our current path would have been when it was getting set up / moving towards it if such were needed, since it was in large part run through the administration (the scorpion room in the temple, the GH updates, etc. etc.) This is why there was such a reaction when it seemed like we were being told it was not going to work any more.

Given Glomdoring's past history with administration and RP issues, Xenthos' take on these comments is not unjustified. At one point, we were told that if Glomdoring didn't make significant changes to its RP and atmosphere, it would no longer receive admin support or further development.

I don't particularly have a dog in this fight any longer, nor do I really intend to dredge up ancient water that has long passed under the bridge. But I just want to illustrate that the idea, "If you continue to follow RP course X, bad things will happen," can historically and accurately be interpreted as something much more severe than some IC difficulties.

Let's drop whether you can or can't do something and whether or not you'll be punished. I think that's been adequately answered.

If someone has comments on how to make bards or monks feel more integrated, I think that'd be much more productive.

I think it's very worth pointing out (to Xenthos, though I know someobdy else already did and he missed it) that Lamella is not the Wise Lady in the Scrorpion Caverns. Wise Lamella is the leader of the Hyfae.

Talan has already pointed this out to me in a more direct fashion, but thanks! I just can't be bothered to edit because there are too many 'Wise' mobs in the game. I just use the one with a name. Hmph.