Doors are restored at midnight. And yes, it takes a long long time to break through a steel or iron door.

I mean as a Harbinger we looked into it and the only reduction in damage was from warriors or monks hitting you, non wounding physical damage was not reduced at all.

Yeah, could we get someone to check this?

Amazing what forum searches can produce:



http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=716372

Came across this post in scanning through some of my older posts. Found this one from long ago:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=547270

Is it still true that double pain only works to increase wounding on unarmed actions?

Tried to hash out some numbers on wounding using punch, punch, kick targeted to head. Took care to make sure all three actions hit. This time I wrote down the wound numbers thanks to Thul.



I already knew the outcome of this test from a previous test years ago. As you can see, kata strength soft is lower on the skill chain, provides greater wounding increase than DP. I still have to test whether or not soft and DP apply to armed attacks; I can now vouch that nekreve (Nekotai power-based auto-raze modifier) does not extend wounding increases to unarmed attacks (nekai-based only).

For all of these reasons, and the one's I've mentioned below, can someone envoy to move double pain down to the unspecialized psionic skillset?

Acrobatics Elasticity is mentioned in Envoy Report 293, and should only be a dmp reduction on wounding attacks.

Moving doublepain into base Psionics would create a completely useless skill for all the psionic mages out there. If anything, drop it down into Master-Gifted range. Moving it down might push Regeneration up in the skillset though, which people wouldn't be too happy about.

*cough*movemindfielddownintoregularpsionicskthxbai*cough*

Hehehehe. Read this post whereby I explain that only 5 of the 21 psionic skills actually "work" with psymet monks. Read the post that I intended as the setup to make this current argument:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=755863

The idea isn't to give TP/TK mages a useable skill, but to place a psymet friendly/exclusive skill back down into psionics so psymets actually have a skill they can use in the capable-master skill range. Not to mention that kata strength soft:



is a skill that is also gained at capable. As a virtusoso skill:



your missing the point that it was intended to be used with unarmed kata, and can be used in conjunction with kata strength soft. Not to mention this ability has already been through the envoy process once:



Adding 25 wounds on a PPK combo (remember, it can only be used on unarmed actions). Not what I would label a virtuoso skill. Arguing that it should do more wounds at this point seems moot based on the fact that:

1) post-momentum monks don't rely on unarmed actions as much as pre-momentum monks (i.e. monks have changed, the skill has not).

2) would anyone in their right mind actually argue that monks should do more damage?

Hence, I see two reasonable options based on the arguments I've put before me. Either drop the skill down into psionics, or replace it altogether:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=750091

Not that I think my idea for giving psymet monks some psychic damage is entirely sound (only resistances, I don't believe there are psychic weak races), but would be more in line with where the skill appears in the skill chain.

Completed a second battery of wounding tests. This time I moved away from any unarmed actions (including kick). Simply nekai, nekai head while running through the various iterations of wound modifiers: double pain, kata strength soft, and nekreve (Nekotai mod). Used a different test subject, so you cannot exactly compare these results with that of my unarmed tests. Also, this time around I ranked the combos in ascending order based on the estimated wounding average. Not going to infer any conclusions; I'll let the numbers do all the speaking.



EDIT: Though, I will say that double pain does appear to impact both armed and unarmed actions. Nekreve modifies armed actions only.

EDIT: Not that you should compare these two data sets. That being said, I also believe a plain kata kick in a form gives about 200 wounding according to my preliminary tests. on average.

Request denied. This skill only works on unarmed attacks, it has no use for mages and would only clutter the skillset. You could look at moving it down but it would likely move other things up.

As was posted above, elasticity is dmp specifically to wounding attacks, if it doesnt wound it wont reduce it.

Agreed about Elasticity only adding DMP against monk/warrior wounding. Edited my posts here:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=753880

and here:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=753892

to reflect my revised calculations of how raw physical DMP stacks using guild skills for stealth monks.

Everything I know and remember about Double Pain is that it that it is restricted to unarmed combat. However, my preliminary tests here might prove otherwise:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?show...st&p=757237

A larger data set would reveal whether Double Pain adds wounding to armed attacks. The 160'ish range for nekai, nekai compared against the 170'ish range for nekai, nekai w/doublepain are nearly too close (with only a 10 or 15 point difference). Double pain only added about 25 wounds for my punch, punch, kick.

Though, crunching some numbers (10/160 and 25/400) reveals a very consistent 6.25% increase in wounds over base-- this would suggest that DP does increase wounding on armed attacks. Further studies could be conducted to (dis)prove this finding.

In comparrison, kata soft appears to boost wounding by an estimated 20% (though, losing some health damage in the process). I'd really, really love to know how much tahtetso pound and smash adjust wounding/damage. . . especially in light of these other modifiers.

I don't think it makes any sense to return Double Pain back through an Envoy process to ask for increased wounding. You don't feel that it makes sense to move the skill down into psionics, and not entirely worthwhile to move it down in psychometabolism. Would it seem reasonable to do away with this sill altogether and replace double pain with another offensive ability that synergizes with a kata attack?

Having some time to play around with my two data sets of numbers, I was able to draw several speculative conclusions about wounding modifiers (especially as it relates to psymet double pain). In order to compare the PPK (punch, punch, kick unarmed attack) against NN (nekai, nekai armed attack), I'll reduce all of my numbers into wound increase / base wounds to gain a percentage.

PPK w/Double Pain
25/400 = 6.25%
NN w/Double Pain
10/160 = 6.25%
INFERENCE: Double Pain increases wounds on un/armed by 6.25%


PPK w/Soft
80/400 = 20%
NN w/Soft
30/160 = 18%
INFERENCE: Soft increases wounds on un/armed by 18% ~ 20%


NN w/Nekreve
120/160 = 75%
INFERENCE: Nekreve increases wounds on armed by 75%

What really shocks me, is that Double Pain seems so low for a locked Psymet ability, and that Nekreve seems so high (perhaps because I had the number of 40% bounding around my head).

My running hypothesis is that these wounding modifiers are cumulative (get added together) rather than are weighted in anyway. Let's run a quick test of this theory. Double Pain plus Soft would be 6.25% + 20% or a 26.25% increase over my base wounds of 160. Hypothetically, that would amount to 42 in modified wounds + 160 base wounding or 202 cumulative wounds. Certainly falls in my recorded range of 200 to 215.

So, now let's apply this same logic to adding Nekreve. Remember, Nekreve only adjusts armed attacks. So Double Pain plus Soft plus Nekreve, or in other words, 6.25% + 20% + 75% = 101.25% when all three are coordinated in a single kata attack. Let's test this hypothesis.

In theory, a 101.25% increase in the NN wounding base of 160 would produce 322 wounds (with 162 modified + 160 base). This seems off my estimated average of 370 by a significant chunk of change. WHATIF we were to increase Double Pain's 6.25% plus Kata Soft's 20% by Nekreve's 75% PLUS Nekreve's 75% on top of that. In other words:

((((0.0625 + 0.2) 0.75) X ) + (0.75 * X)) =

Where X = unmodified base wounding. So, let's crunch numbers:

((((0.0625 + 0.2) * 0.75) 160 ) + (0.75 * 160)) = 352

Considering my NN w/Nekreve w/Double Pain w/Nekreve produced a range from 351 to 384, it certainly seems plausible.

So, what are the implications? Without this test, I might have suggested increase DP's wounding from 6.25% to 15% on the basis that you decrease damage for increased wounds (and vice versa). Something like Syntax: PSI DOUBLEPAIN . That might ONCE have seemed reasonable considering that monks don't hit hard for base wounding, and the limited need for wounds to proc afflictions in the unarmed kata skill set.

Well, I don't think you can really Envoy an increase in % of wounds for Double Pain; especially in light of the modern momentum monk's tool of Nekreve (or similar) to increase wounding (which seems to compound with other wounding modifiers). In light of this hypothetical discovery, I wonder how Tahtetso pound/smash would calculate into this hypothetical formula. Imagine how all of these modifiers might compound!

Again, these numbers are all hypothetical. My "conclusions" mere speculation. Test the numbers out for yourself and dis/prove me.

Here's a second go at the numbers to prove my speculative theory that Nekreve modifies both wounding AND wounding modifiers. For a recap, the formula looks like this:

( ( (Nekotai Nekreve 75% (Psymet Double Pain 6.25% + Kata Wounding Soft 20%) 160 Nekotai Armed Wounding) + (Psymet Double Pain 6.25% + Kata Wounding Soft 20%) ) * ( (Nekotai Nekreve 75% ( 160 Nekotai Armed Wounding) + ( 160 Nekotai Armed Wounding) ) )

Let's see what happens when I adjust for DP w/Nekreve and then DP w/Soft to see if this formula stays true using the numbers I've already collected.

NEKREVE w/Double Pain
(((75% * 6.25%) + 6.25%) 160) + ((75% 160 wounds) + 160) =
((4.69% + 6.25%) 160 ) + (120 + 160) =
(10.94% (160)) + 280 =
18 + 280 = 298 wounds.
TRUE. This falls within my recorded range of 296 - 312


NEKREVE w/Soft
(((75% * 20%) + 20%) 160) + ((75% 160 wounds) + 160) =
((15% + 20%) 160 ) + (120 + 160) =
(35% (160)) + 280 =
56 + 280 = 336 wounds.
TRUE. This falls within my recorded range of 329 - 339


Again, would love to see the impact of Tahto wounding w/soft w/Double Pain w/Pounding w/Tahtai.

PS Sorry if I wrote my formula wrong. I can crunch the numbers, but have a very hard time of using the correct mathematical language. No doubt I am using incorrect mathematical expressions to quantify this idea.

To bring the subject back into focus, here are four options to bring Double Pain back through an Envoy process (though, pretty sure you can officially only offer three options). Would love to get a reaction to see which ones are the most reasonable.



1) Move Psymet Double Pain down in the Psychometabolism skill set, or even further down into Psionics.

PRO: Psionics doesn't offer Psymet friendly skills in the capable - master skill range. Double Pain is comparable to the capable-level skill of Kata Strength (soft). Although wounding increases damage, proc for poisons, it seems to have better synergy with the unarmed skill set. As a trans Psymet ability, it seems too high on the skill chain for what it offers.

CON: Speculation that Double Pain wouldn't work outside kata armed/unarmed actions. In other words it would be a wasted ability for mages, and clutter their Psionic skill set. Moving it lower in Psychometabolism means bumping other, vital skills upward (such as regeneration). Doesn't really "fix" the skill (assuming that it doesn't benefit monks).



2) Increase Psymet Double Pain's wounding from 6.25% to 15%, but at the expense of damage. Likewise, offer the flexible option to increase damage at the expense of damage (parallel to kata wounding soft/hard or Tahtetso's smash/pounding). You would toggle upon setting the locked defense.

PRO: An increase alone will most likely not pass through the Furies decision, especially considering the past report. A tradeoff might be the only reasonable option. Increasing wounds could also breathe new life into some kata attacks and afflictions (namely kicks).

CON: C'mon, do monks really need more wounding/damage modifier options? Also, please see my report how stance bypassing abilities (i.e. nekreve) not only increase wounds/bleeding/damage, but also appears to increase wounding modifiers (effect on damage and bleeding modifiers not yet tested) on armed attacks.



3) Leave Psymet Double Pain's modifier at a static 6.25, but offer a toggle between to offer some flexibility for various monk approaches to combat for armed combat only. This would scale back Double Pain from currently working on both armed and unarmed attacks.

PRO: Flexibility is key. Would parallel the unarmed kata modifiers of Gouge and Strength (soft and hard). Psymet thrives on conditional defenses (ex. Biofeedback on elements and Enhancement on strength /dex).

CON: Well, 6.25% is still a rather low modifier. Many monk guilds already offer bleeding modifiers. Could be OP for Nekotai monks who thrive on bleeding (albeit from unarmed kicks, and this would set to modify only armed attacks).



4) Change the nature of Psymet Double Pain altogether; remove this skill for something more preferable. Current idea is to offer specialized psychic damage on armed kata attacks similar to elemental artifact runes or Transmology's Gauntlets.

PRO: Well, this is one of the few ideas on the table that moves away from the wounding model of Double Pain, and introduces something new. Although I'd hate to duplicate a skill, a similar skill already exists in Transmology Gauntlets. Could also help increase damage on armed attacks, and diversify playing style.

CON: Not sure there are any races with psychic weakness. Mechanically, offering this might conflict with the mechanics of elemental artifact runes, or the ability to sell such runes for kata weapons. Note: I don't believe guardians can use warrior runes, so it does not conflict with that archetype. Would also question whether this would proc mindfield, which could get tricky.



5) Offer your solution here.

EDIT: From Malarious: http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=768277

Like any good inquiry project, answers should only lead to additional questions. . .

Monk wounding is useful insofar that it procs unarmed kata afflictions, increases the chance for envenomed weapons to transfer poison, can increase damage, increase bleeding, aid warriors in group combat (I might be missing some other applications).

Understand that my goal is to understand monk wounding so there is a potential that some Envoy can reexamine Double Pain to be resubmitted through an Envoy report. To date, I've learned that:

1. Psymet Double Pain adds an approximate 6.25% wounding to armed and unarmed actions.
2. Kata Strength Soft adds 20% wounding to armed and unarmed actions at the expense of straight health damage.
3. Nekotai Nekreve (and similar abilities) increases wounds and wounding modifiers by 75% on armed actions only.

This leads me to two additional questions:

1. Does base wounding increase with more skilled kata attacks?
2. How does Tahtetso pounding increase wounds?

The first question was easily answerable. Thanks to a participating Cult member, I quickly ran through each kata action (unarmed and specialized) to establish base wounding for each kata action. It is worthwhile to note that for the sake of efficiency, these actions were only performed once and outside of a kata action. The subject was fully buffed and had Elasticity raised (15 DMP to wounding).

Additional research will establish approximate averages on an unbuffed test subject (and also document bleeding and health damage). Also, I'm curious establish if wounding inside and outside of forms are comparable. Enough of that, here are my results:



When I have the time, I might organize this information into tiers of wounding damage (ex kick & sprongk have similar wounding, so does angkai and angkhai, etc). Conclusion? Wounding is scaled to different types of attacks (i.e. kicks, 1-handed, 2-handed, etc) and not by more skilled attacks itself. Hopefully this information can be used to expand practices in the area of more fully utilizing monk wounding.

Secondly, I'd love to have a real insiders view as to how the Tahtetso Pounding modifier could increase wounds given all of the other wounding modifiers available. There is no data on Tahto wounding or Pounding modifier. There is no information for me to infer results. Lacking any concrete numbers, I can only make the sloppiest hypothesis based on everything else I've learned to date.

Here's Kata Wounding Soft



And Tahtseto Pounding



As mere speculation, I wonder whether Pounding adds a modifier comparable to the Psyme Virt skill of Double Pain. Since this mod can be used in conjunction with Double Pain AND soft, let's estimate the modifier around 10% for the sake of discussion.

Since Pounding works more like Kata Strength Soft by increasing wounding at the expense of damage, we could also assume that it gives a modifier similar to soft. Again, for the sake of discussion, let's run a second set of numbers assuming Pounding offers a 20% boost.

Finally, in absence of any information about Tahto base wounding, I'll assume it offers the equivalent of Neka.

This is the sloppiest of scientific method. Despite the shortcomings of having any real hard data in the area of Tahetetso wounding and wounding modifiers, it will help me speculate how a third wounding variable would be compounded by Tahtai and other similar kata actions.

Speculated Tahto w/Double Pain w/Soft w/Tahtai (estimated ~10%)
(((75% (6.25% + 10% + 20%) + (6.25% + 10% + 20%)) 160) + ((75% * 160) + 160)) =
(((75% * 36.25%) + 36.25%) 160)+ (120 + 160) =
((27.19% + 36.25%) 160) + 280 =
(63.44% * 160) + 280 =
101 + 280 = 390

Speculated Tahto w/Double Pain w/Soft w/Tahtai (estimated ~20%)
(((75% (6.25% + 20% + 20%) + (6.25% + 20% + 20%)) 160) + ((75% * 160) + 160)) =
(((75% * 46.25%) + 46.25%) 160)+ (120 + 160) =
((34.69% + 46.25%) 160) + 280 =
(80.94% * 160) + 280 =
130 + 280 = 410

That was with a Tahto, Tahto where Tahto wounding = Nekai wounding.

On a side note, is there no Kaife equivalent in Tahtetso?

Wounding is based, in part, on the damage dealt by the attack. Damage is based on a LOT of factors, such as your stats (strength and dexterity, mostly), your weapon stats, your modifiers, their afflictions, your defenses, their defenses, their armor, etc. Good luck deciphering all that!

Also, Janalon, for the Tahtetso wounding numbers... since Glom and Celest are allies IG, I can always come over to Glom and smack you around so you can get your data. I'm no good at keeping accurate logs, myself.

THANK YOU!

Result?

Tahto, Tahto
133
140
140
134
AVERAGE 137

Tahto, Tahto w/Pounding
199
204
218
206
AVERAGE 206

SPECULATIVE CONCLUSION: Pounding adds 50% to Wounding.

These numbers suggest a 50% increase in wounding. Or a cumulative wounding modifier of 76.25% with Double Pain, Soft, and Pounding. This is far more than I anticipated. Now, let's take a third crack at looking how their Tahtai power mod would effect these numbers.

Speculated Tahto w/Double Pain w/Soft w/Tahtai (estimated ~50%)
(((75% (6.25% + 20% + 50%) + (6.25% + 20% + 50%)) 137) + ((75% * 137) + 137)) =
(((75% * 57.19%) + 76.25%) 137)+ (102.75 + 239.75) =
((57.19% + 76.25%) 137) + 239.75 =
(133.43% * 137) + 280 =
182.80 + 239.75 = 423

NOW, we actually tested this out. First time Denust hit me in the head with all of the aforementioned modifiers for 434 wounding. The way Nekotai can whore bleeding, and Ninjakari can take advantage of advanced grapples (in theory), Tahtetso monks excel in wounding (what are Shofangi good for?). The Thatetso guild should ultimately use this information to really take advantage of wounding in their kata forms to proc unarmed afflictions, poisons, bleeding, etc. These modifiers could be deadly with Tahto'sho (300 wounding against 130 Tahto wounding) or a really developed form!

My concluding question? Why does the virtuoso Psymet skill of only add a meager 6.25% to armed/unarmed when the virtuoso Tahtetso skill of Pounding add a whalloping 50% to armed wounding? I am not in any way suggesting to Nerf Taht Pounding, rather merely offering another argument why Double Pain does not offer a comparable amount of wounding for a skill on the same level.

Because this is important, I'll go ahead and list my stats and defenses for the test session with Janalon:

Stats with +2 STR from Psymet Enhancement:


Defenses: I dropped Bonedensity for Doublepain when we were testing it.

It's actually a bit simpler than Zarquan mentions. Wounding boosts damage but damage doesn't affect wounding.

Any hit will first do a certain amount of wounding, affected only by kata modifiers, weapon precision, armour/shield, stance and the monk's dexterity. After the wounding is applied, damage for the strike is calculated based on kata modifiers, strength, weapon damage, DMP, prone and total wounding on the bodypart (including wounding that has just been delivered by the current attack).

Keep in mind for your comparison that smash/pound do not boost kicks which typically account for half of a monk's base damage and wound output. Smash and pound also cause a 20% reduction in wounding and damage respectively.