Hmm, strange. Well, they might just be an alt trying out that particular org and don't need help.
If that person refuses to learn their lessons or do any of the things set out for them they won't make it far in Lusternia anyways.

Well that's the whole reason we don't let them pick a trade skill yet, because they'll presumably put lessons into it instead of his most basic guild skills, which is exactly what these three did. What I think is most hilarious is, after putting me through one of the most headache-inducing conversations of my time as GA (which admittedly is quite short so far), he tells me he has 800 lessons! If he had that many, why give me such a hard time about the 50 we ask them to put into guild skills? If he had done that, and not had a horrible attitude and gone around killing loyals and so forth, I would've been inclined to let him keep the trade skill too. But he had to go and be a dumbarse about it, so... buh-bye... Anyway I still say we need GUILD STAT !

You don't have a choice.

He can learn whatever the hell he wants.

Yeah, I'm not really down with the idea of telling people what they can and can't learn. I mean, giving them a preferred list of things to learn and letting them know those things are important while other things aren't so much just yet, is fine.

But saying, "You're not allowed to learn this and if you do, you're out."

That's going too far, IMO.

Totally.

The Undersecretary's Lament

Everyday, it's the same thing.
The Portal of Fates spits one out.
While many make me sing,
One makes my sauerkraut.

I'm just an NPC to him,
He doesn't really care.
My teachings are too dim,
or maybe I put on an air.

He's obviously the best,
He kneels to no man or god.
To us, he's like the rest,
Precursor to a drunken sod.

An annoyance, a waste of time,
But by honour I must do my duty.
But now I must listen to him whine,
until he goes back to his mutti.

And so our motto stands to this day,
a time honoured tradition.
And although, come what may,
It's our greatest pay raise munition.

Raise a glass, spill some to the ground,
in memory of our burnt out brethren.
Let Terra shake with our sound,
And may it startle birds into a tailspin.

But...

Grace of Innocence!

You blow my mind on a fairly regular basis, Jigan.

I'm in love.

I called dibs before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye (ICly, of course).

I just let them go. 99 times out of 100 you won't see them again after a couple of days, so don't sweat it. If they do something public and against the guild's rules, you kick them out, just as you would if it was someone established. (E.g., annoying illusions at Mother, consorting with enemies, etc.) If not, just ignore them as long as they ignore you. They'll go away first. Don't sweat it so much, don't try so hard to control it. A week later you'll probably have forgotten the whole incident anyway.

This sounds about right. With a few exceptions most of Gaudiguch's novices haven't been noticeably ill-behaved, and anyone who doesn't want help or doesn't want to learn generally just stops logging in after a few days.

We have bigger fish to fry in the form of older characters who do stupid things, but that's another thread

Oh, yeah. We don't kick them out because they learn a trade skill. They ended up getting kicked for a crapload of stuff all put together, including things like going around attacking everything - whether it's a Seren's wolf or Gaudi's nexus npc. About five things a day adds up fast. I'd never kick some out just for wanting to learn a trade skill. We have exceptions anyway. But it's all good, two of the three are gone and the other one hasn't logged on in almost a week (and I'm guessing never will again).

Jigan, that was seriously awesome.

Please remind yourselves that newbies (even atrocious ones) are the future of Lusternia. Just because a newbie does not understand why certain things are important does not mean he cannot adapt given proper examples. When I first walked into a mud (about 11 or so years ago, dear god, I feel old), I started talking on the Magi channel in a foreign language to a friend, simply because I had no idea what I was doing. Somone jumping on my back then and kicking me out would probably have caused me to stop playing muds right there and then (which many of you would have been very happy about, I am certain).

Moral: Newbies (even annoying ones) are important and patience is the central word when dealing with them. Bossing them around is generally not great tactics. If you don't enjoy that sort of work, fine, but then don't become undersec or guild admin!

One time as GM of the Ninjakari, I had a member forget all of his Ninjakari skill and put it into Stealth. When I asked why, he said, "Because I want to see what cool skills I had". I scolded him, gave him an IC punishment for basically making himself not able to defend the guild and the city. He walked into the Sea of Despair, let it kill him, and suicided ( I think ). I was chewed out by Morgy if memory serves, and basically told I wasn't allowed to make people learn certain skills.

As for the GUILD STAT idea, I'm totally against this. It's frankly none of your business how many lessons this person has, whether they buy credits, or whatever you might see in stat. If they make an annoyance of themselves, thats one thing. Learning odd skills is another.

A few words on my outlook on novices, in general.

Although I have, personally, less to do with them on a regular basis now that I fill a new role in guild and org, I'm always sensitive to novices of all kinds and their ability to enjoy the game. To some, that means acting the pest, but to most, it means a ) feeling included and b ) having the support needed to get their feet under them a bit.

A lot of novices (sometimes alts, sometimes not) never respond to direct inquiries over CGT or through tells. If they don't respond the first time, I don't bother checking again, but I do try to ensure that if they -do- end up needing a question answered, they are assisted. For novices who I hear frequently utilising the NEWBIE channel or who seem at a loss, I check up on them usually about once during the course of a particular log-in. I know from personal experience that feeling that there is at least one person who has demonstrated a willingness to assist is a big help when you're confused or lost and have no idea who to approach for answers. It can be intimidating to ask over a public channel, or possibly embarrassing for this person. Personally, I don't enjoy doing things I don't understand, and having the resources, both through help files AND actual players, makes sure this doesn't drive the nubs away.

Annoying novices are no fun, but very few are -trying- to get on your nerves. I try to keep this in mind, even with the particularly exasperating ones. If it ever gets to the point where it's impossible for me to continue being in contact with them, I give them direction to lead themselves to a self-propelled task, such as a collegium quest, and just respond to the questions that need answering. If it comes down to repeated abuse of org law in terms of conduct, language, or anything else, it's a clearly stated warning, be it IC or OOC, and then, that's it. While excessive pressing and pressuring of newbies is frowned upon, we're only expected to practice leniency to a certain degree. People with seniority and outstanding service to an org can be booted for misconduct, so can they. It's never too hard to spot the ones who are doing it knowingly versus those who just have no clue. I've definitely made mistakes like that as a newbie in the past.

Finally, I'd guess most of you can recall what it was like to be new to a game, or a MUD in general. I know, with another IRE game as my first MUD, that I had zero help and no direction. I was given a hard time about everything, with the experienced players somehow declaring I should already know this or that, new player or otherwise. Even here, not knowing certain syntaxes (that you could refill EMPTY from , for example) or short-cuts made me hate my life when I had to perform certain actions. Only much later did I learn these things, and with it made a mental note to share this with the newer players. It would have helped me then, it can definitely help them now.

On a somewhat flip note, we don't get paid to keep new players around. Undersecs and GAs volunteer to help make a new player feel welcome, but don't beat yourself up over every new player that leaves. Some will stay, some will leave, no matter what you do. I know I've snapped at a few newbies in my time playing the game and regretted it each time, but we're human (except you bots... you know who you are) and it will happen. Some will say it's your "job" to keep every new player around that you meet, but your job is to play the game.

I know when I was a novice forever ago with my first character I was stupid. In fact, my first character drowned the first time I played and got gored by a roc as well. But we learn to run!

It's do or die in Lusternia. They'll either get the hang of it and love it or they won't. I try to help novices as much as possible by pointing them towards scrolls but ultimately it's up to them. If they mess up their lessons they can't come crying to me. I will admit I may have put some of my lessons into unwise things, but overall now I have a pretty good skillset and am considering buying credits - because I want Aeral to be around for a long time.

I do speak OOCly to novices if they don't understand what they're doing as well but I try to stay IC. Essentially, other than pointing them to scrolls, I do talk with them and do the collegium quests and help find books, as well as take them hunting. However, break one of the rules and I'll dump a novice onto someone else. I'm not an undersecretary - it's not my job to make sure that they do what they need to. I just enjoy doing so.

Lusternia is a hard adjustment and sometimes an experienced player forgets that.

I stay IC as much as possible, but when Aoife is talking to a novice about specific things they have to do - like, say, how to recharge a piece of jewelry - I'll sometimes send a tell with the specific verb/syntax needed if they seem confused. (How do I mine for fish, etc)

I stay IC as much as I can in SAYs and but make great use of TELLs when I need to explain something OOCly to novices. People who need things explained to them (as opposed to just needing the syntax of some action) really need clear and precise explanations and, IMO, couching things in strictly IC terms can sometimes make their confusion worse.

But, once I get the feeling they are getting it, I slowly start dialing back my OOCness and move my focus to helping them figure out how to be IC.