Also yes, I am aware now that there are holoscreens and aetherships. Call me old-fashioned.

There is a difference in magnitude between the comparisons. For one, entities are single target focused, so if you were stacking their effects it would only be stacked against that single designated target. Harmonics stack over whole groups, which means that multiple Hallifax guardians become a force multiplier, with the harm and help of their effects increasing over the entire lists of enemies/allies.

The abilities are slow on the cycle, but that slow cycle also decreases the more Harmonics users are in the same room with the same enemy list. So something that hits with a 15 second cycle, has the potential to decrease the cycle between being harmed/healed by the number of guardians divided into 15. So what you can end up with is a group of Harmonics users hitting the opposing entire group with multiple random afflictions based on a possible maximum equal to the number of onyx + sapphire gems spinning in the room. With a large enough number of harmonics users, it becomes possible to have the entire enemy group bogged down with onyx/sapphire afflictions eating their cure balances without considering any other factors.

I did not say that the Institute should convert to a scifi theme (though in most instances you can say it already is). I mean that the skills should keep in theme with the rest of the guild.

For all of you non library-visiting persons who are so annoyed by the sphere names, here's a rather EXCELLENT work to read:




It's so full of win it annoys me Incabulos doesn't write for Glom anymore.

I feel I should point out that people are comparing Harmonics to demesnes and songs which is something I was going to post about (until I feel asleep for 15 hours)

We are a Guardian guild.

We look like the only guardian guild for which the rune of dominion would be a really good purchase. This could be another reason for why something feels wrong, unless I am mistaken there is only one ability across the five primary skills of the other guardian and wiccan guilds that works off enemy lists.

Using the crystals makes them different from any other guild ('cept Illuminati) but using enemy lists and being so group focused makes them quite different from the other guilds in their archetype. (including the Illuminati)

I could go to any other guild, look at their archetype and generally know what I am in for without looking at their skill lists. In the Illuminati I could go in and think "yeah, they are a little different but not majorly". Now that I've looked at harmonics this way I can't get the thought out of my head that it is the child of original Aeromancy and a bard skill.

Also @Siam before admonishing people for disliking the sphere names you should probably know that they have probably read that book, I've actually referenced it in this thread and based off the sphere names alone I was expecting a very different skill. Go read through that book, then look at harmonics and then tell me there is no confusion.

Judging from the Wiccan artifact package they sold, they apparently think guardians/wiccans can make good use of the Rune of Dominion, despite Moondancers, for example, having only one ability that cares about enemies.

But yeah, now that people have pointed it out, you're right, Harmonics doesn't feel like a guardian skillset for the most part.

I was kind of hoping that the Hallifax guardian guild would have loyal ents like the Inevitables from Dungeons & Dragons. Alas, no Marut-alike for me. Why did the admins decide to scrap the Celestine/Nihilist model for these new guilds? I wouldn't say that it was a bad decision, but it seems like coming up with an alternative has been a little problematic.

Only cause some folks seem unable/unwilling to embrace the differences and enjoy them.

I think it's really cool that the two new guilds aren't carbon copies of the other two guardian guilds. Exactly the same except for the names of the critters that follow them around. I kind of wish the Pyro/Areomancers were so different from the Aqua/Geomancers, honestly, but that wouldn't make as much sense considering the elemental planes aren't as different from each other as the cosmic planes are.

I will disagree, they should be different. Transmology is different but still you can see that it is still a guardian style guild.

I just went through all the primary and secondary skills across the board for the other guardians and the wiccans.
I count a total 11 abilities across the ten skills vs 13 abilities in harmonics alone (18 if you include aeonics) the only skills with such a focus on enemy/ally lists are the mage, bard and druid ones.

To me, guardians/wiccans have always been the more 1-v-1 magic-user option of the guilds available in an org, Illuminati match up with this, but even in this thread you already have comments about what would happen if you just stacked a heap of Harmonics users in the same room.

Again, Transmology is different and good, the suggestions being made regarding experimentation and the like would not have us ending up with a polyhedron that we imbue with abilities based on our bonds to the spheres, they would involve using the spheres and gems to magical-science up some gizmos to use in combat.

Also, no touchy mah wandy I like my sonic screw driver.

OH MY GOD THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE. IT IS ALMOST TOO PERFECT.

Also, thanks for plugging my book, guise. If anyone says I'm not putting enough effort into building Institute RP, I'll probably kindly point them toward the library, from now on.
This also does kind of explain why I'm all exasperated. I thought I'd have even more material to work with, to write more on the same subject, once Institute was actually released.
But, still, the only thing we've actually got is the sphere names, and that's it.



See above. Already did it.



That seems a little unfair. Either what we've been given is potentially good but not fleshed out, so we're justified in criticising lack of quantity, or what we've been given is unappealing/disinteresting at its core, in which case we're justified in criticising lack of quality. Either way, creating difference for the sake of difference alone is not really a good thing.

How dare you plagiarize me before I came up with my idea! Aeonics, indeed.

This reminds me:
I NEED MY ZAP APPROVED. FORGET NIENLA. MINE IS BETTER.

I'm not saying that Institute/Illuminati should be exactly the same as Celestines/Nihilists. I'm just commenting that this particular way of doing things differently with the Institute doesn't seem to have hit the mark very well. I'll agree with you about the Illuminati: it has the feel of a guardian guild, even without the supermobs and investible single ent. I won't even pin it down to a difference in mechanics (as you've pointed out, Institute guardians play more like a Mage/Druid than a guardian), it's just that the Illuminati skills do have that flavor.

EDIT: Well, the wands could have been more unique since wands existed before the Institute... but ignoring that, I find your nickname for it kind of appropriate.




I know I can't have been the only person to like this idea.

Or you're showing no initiative.
Or you're simply not interested in the guild like you thought you would be.
Or you're missing what's in front of you.

This list can go on for a good long while. What's unfair is imposing your boredom on outside agents.

Seriously, I looked at the wands and the reference was blinding.

Also I think we are agreeing actually.



You are directing this comment at someone who has written a book on the Continuum.
You are directing this comment at a member of a Guardian guild which is not a guardian guild.
You are directing this comment at a group of players who, if true, are being mislead because they are trying to look deeper than what is there.

Please continue.

Wrote a book about it. The fact I cared enough to make a thread and respond a bunch of times shows initiative, any way you look at it.


Exactly. Why would that be? If I don't find something interesting, it's either down to:

a.) personal taste.
or
b.) thing is inherently disinteresting.

Could be either. What I don't understand is that by making these arguments, you're implicitly stating there's a horrible downside to approaching the subject as if 'b' is true, when that's simply not the case.


If I am, how did that happen?

Please watch the attitude, everyone. Each of you have equally valuable opinions.

I do not, personally, feel that the Institute is a 'guardian guild that's not a guardian guild' - a lot of what it seems to be is you're looking for entities, spiritual ideologies/philosophies and things of that nature - which really, that's not what the Institute is, I'd think. They're atheistic, there aren't 'pathways' like the Illuminati - because they don't believe in anything. The spheres aren't things to revere, they're balls of crystal that predate anything you are aware of, that you use. You don't even know if you're using them properly, you just presume you are.

I think, as Noola said, so many of you are looking at it as 'we aren't a cosmic guardian guild like the others' - when in reality, you're right, you aren't. You're something uniquely different - you use a 'dead' creche. There is no 'culture' or 'philosophy' to it - it's dead. Whomever came from it probably isn't very important, and probably the most interesting thing is that you have twelve giant spheres of crystal that can be use to charge gemstones with harmonic energy for use in experimentation and even combat. You don't 'bond' with them because there's nothing to bond to. Bonds are sentimental and unimportant.

'Different' doesn't make it 'bad', though it may take time to adjust to. And I don't really think the guild has poor 'quality', it's exactly what I'd think one would expect. As close to an atheistic organization as one can get in Lusternia, devoted entirely to research and study. I don't really understand what you're looking for beyond that?

And as an aside, a lot of this strikes me as fairly predictable as having been a long time in the design - look at the trill picture that was done early on (and quite possibly pre-open, I don't know). And wasn't the Hieli (sp?) Goldfeather quest in the Moors involving a ring and a wand (both his, him having been an Institute member who fell victim to the Taint). I mean, what were you really expecting? Crystal bazookas?

The philosophy behind the guardian guild is 'science above everything'. We view the planes as something to be examined and explained. We do not rely on any sort of hocus pocus or magic. The only 'ritual' we perform involves lots of sciency tools. Crystals offer a lot of science related study and yet the Harmonics skillset seems to completely miss that. Ther is no mention that the crystalline structure of gems produces a unique vibration that produce unique effects when spun or something to than effect. All of the skill descriptions seem a bit out of sync with what we guardians are about.

P.s. The gem effects do feel a bit redundant.

This kind of feels like you haven't read anything that has been written and that you are just expecting people to be trying to convert the institute into a religious organisation. We don't want a Celestialism/Nihilism duplicate, the actual reason that I am saying that the Institute is not a guardian guild is not because we don't have the philosophical side, it's actually primarily on the mechanics of the skill. Look at the skills, compare them to other guilds, they are completely different not just a little different like we see in Transmology.

All other guardian guilds seem to focus more on taking down a single target, where the Institute is group based.

I've gone through with strike through to remove the parts of your post that I am not looking for from this. The only thing left is the part about experimentation, this is what I want to see and what I thought the skill would be about, experimenting with the crystals and crafting objects. There is no reverence, they are merely tools through which we craft things to assist us.

Also the bit about using them correctly, I actually think that we are using them wrong.



I will reiterate, the number of group abilities across the ten skills available to the other guardian/wiccan guilds is less than the number of group abilities in harmonics alone. Why would anyone ever expect this? The more logical expectation would have been that the crystalplex had a max number with the affects being determined by the crystals within them with a collection of other abilities with the creation/experimental theme.

Alright! To each their own. I'll bow out, as apparently having different mechanics from other guilds is your complaint (which I don't really understand why that's a thing to complain about).

And nothing about Hallifax has a 'creation' theme, except art (which is more 'perfection' and 'refinement').