So, I read Inc.'s book on the Continuum last night, and as purported, it was really, really good.

Unfortunately, it kind of leaves me a little more confused as to what the actual complaint is. It was a very elaborate treatment of the Continuum as the circuits of reality itself with plenty of areas to flesh out more and explore. Each chapter could easily be expanded into a set of writings, rituals, paths (not hard wired into the skills, but still), values, goals, philosophies, art... I mean, everything is there to start building one of the most rich and elaborate guild RP environments I've run across.

As to the question of whether or not the skills themselves are that whippy or balanced or whatever, that's one discussion, but in terms of the skillset being lackluster from an RP perspective, it clearly is not.

You even have the added bonus of research facilities keyed to gemstones. I can easily envision something like a "Diamond Sect" dedicated to the things diamond is supposed to represent, etc. Each focus contributing to the overall guild in a different way.

Yeah, on the whole relationship of skills to the guild's RP, I'm not sure at all what's missing.

They believe in science. A skill like Pathways, which invaluably provides several distinct and well-defined in-roads for building personal and organisational roles upon, could easily carry a theme of science rather than worship or philosophy.

Transmology is incredibly high-impact. I immediately thought, "Woah," and then my second thought was which of the five pathways I'd be.

Harmonics lacks that impact. If I can phrase this without sounding too critical: Two thirds of its abilities are obtaining gems, and filling out the crystalplex with the passive effects of the twelve stones. Of the rest, apart from the wand and Heartstone which look interesting, I don't see anything to compare with the bold, guild-defining imagery present within other guardian guilds.

The wand, I need to say, seems like an odd choice for a guild so powerfully scientific. Wands are a strong magical symbol. Abracadabra, and all that, or else used as a focal point in ritual. I had to check myself from typing "magic wand" while writing this.

Except that in a world where Magic exists, the Scientific Study of Magic is possible, as well as the Scientific Use of Magic. The Institute uses Magic to perform Science, that's all.

Edit: Also, Illuminati may have the "oomph" in their skill flavor, but the Institute is still spanking us in terms of the overall guild experience. We still don't have jack set up in terms of paths and an actual functioning system that makes us a guild of anything.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I suppose you're right, but you're still trading on OOC connotations to some degree. It's not an obvious symbol, so I wonder why it was chosen.

It's really interesting that the Illuminati have the great skills, but are still finding their feet with their identity and roleplay, while the Institute are the exact opposite, haha.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was chosen because of everyone talking about Doctor Who and having a sonic screwdriver.

Consolidate most of the passive effects, get some that work towards some sort of offense outside of, 'Throw Rubies at people, hope they're dumb enough to sit in the same room so I can timequake.'

I dunno, Balestone is pretty spammable.

You have also really downplayed the mechanical differences between the Institute and the rest of the guardians. Look at Celestialism, Nihilism and Transmology, they all look to me like skills focused on fighting one-on-one while Harmonics is a skill focused on group combat(again Celstialism and Nihilism have not one group ability between them, Transmology has one, Harmonics has thirteen). The issue with mechanics is that we are closer to Bards or Melders than other Guardians, with Estarra even commenting that the bulk of the abilities might become more like music but I really want to know why is this the case.

Just imagine a music spec being developed that does not use compositions at all but rather just contains a string of active abilities and you'll start to get close to what I mean by different. Wildarrane manages to be different but is still very firmly a bard skill, Transmology is different but still firmly a Guardian skill, Harmonics just... isn't

Also I mean specifically the creation of objects. We create stones, wands and spires to serve varying purposes, I thought this would actually be the focus of the skill with more long lasting items created through experimentation with the gems.



The issue is more that if you compare the book to the skills you get questions about why nothing investigated by the book is really present in the skills. The spheres were what was examined, the author of the book himself says that he was expecting to learn more once the guild was out and there was nothing.



Erm no, that goes towards faith in the spheres which is not what we want. There should be no "Devotees of Flux Transmutation"

Less of a devotion in a sense of religious context, but in the terms of experimentation and study perhaps? Certain groups within the guild can specialize in certain gemstones (yes, I know mechanically you can't I have Trans Harmonics on Diamondais) in their understanding and usage for Hallifax's benefit.

The closest we have is actually our wands, though as appropriate they are just a tool with an incidental enhancement of the relevant gemstone.

The current issue is really that, such might work but where do we go?

Turquoise - Flux Transmutation - heavy vibration that protects
Jade - Temporal Existence - Meditation
Garnet - Precise Veracity - Erratic/Mentally draining (why is this the result of precise truth?)
Beryl - Vindicated Convergence - Light, ego stroking
Opal - Symmetrical Accord - Chaotic ego draining
Onyx - Quantized Equilibrium - Sickening
Bloodstone - Quantitative Symmetry - bleeds
Amethyst - Transcendental Originations - physical vibration that heals
Emerald - Chronological Paradigm - ultimate healing
Sapphire - Aesthetic Apprehension - sharp mentally afflicting
Ruby - Immutable Syntagmatics - unstable and aggressive
Diamond - Axiomatic Supremacy - the clarity of the vibration protects you./the strong crystalline structure protects you.

Things only get more confusing when you look at the stones, cause then you have like... weird combinations of vibrations that somehow cause effects.

Also, with the naming of the spheres. The most logical expectation is that original hallifax named the spheres, any titles they might have had would probably not have been passed on because there wouldn't have been anyone to pass them on(iirc). So why would hallifax name them as such?

Just a side comment:

I think part of the reason why Illuminati had a greater impact to everyone is because attuning yourself to a gem's vibrations pale in comparison to manipulating your flesh, at least from a real-life perspective. It's like how I, or rather my alts, don't prosper when they're in a warrior or a monk guild - the whole concept of fighting with different styles is good, sure, but it just doesn't appeal to me as much as dealing with fae, dealing with angels and demons, doing sacred-light/dark stuff, having magical songs(and a good e-singing voice by default), having control over plants, having psionic abilities, etc. do. It's like how there's a greater number of people who prefer the fancy magic show over the mental meditation and/or discipline stuff - most humans - most of us - are like that. There's just this need to at see what is happening, or at least perceive some sort of sensory stimuli from something, be it an object or an event we're experiencing.

Bottom line: vibrations are less appealing because you can't see them, maybe you can 'feel' them, but still, anything that improves the guild is welcome. The vibrations are not really 'bad', they're useful and helpful, maybe a bit redundant, but still good!



Also, flight gems plz.

Our Administrator has been really busy, and it gives the rest of us a lot of time to install the pathways that will justifiably flesh out our guild's RP while she does so. If you'll notice, a new pathway went up yesterday.



I don't know where you're getting this from - I get the feeling we know what we're doing, maybe you just aren't paying enough attention. I feel very bad for the Institute, I really do, because the Divine seem utterly disinterested in stepping in to help a handful of guilds flesh out and clarify their RP because apparently RP suffers both the curse of being tightly controlled by lore that could change at any moment and the annoying need by everybody to have special, unique snowflake facets of the same damn thing. Not only this, but I know that in terms of contributing to being in an interesting class, Harmonics is looking sort of.. well.. not there yet. Especially when compared to Transmology, I can see why the Institute people feel sort of left in the dust.

@Eventru: if you think the problem is that people are angry that Harmonics is different in terms of aim/execution from Celestialism and Nihilism, I don't think that is what they're complaining about. I believe they're angry that Harmonics really does not feel at all like the skill a guardian would use. I can agree there - it feels closer to a ripoff of the rest of IRE's Mages, crossed with some kind of sick, unattackable Wicca ent. It doesn't really feel 'Guardian-ish' - even if the Institute isn't your typical Guardian. In fact, why make the Institute Hallifax's Guardians when you knew that they wouldn't really be all that in theme with the concept of a Guardian?

Mechanically, you could have released them as Hallifax's bards and I'd have said "Oh, that's a weird bard guild, but pretty neat how they use the harmonic vibrations from the crystals in their music" and not really batted an eye.

In a world in which "magic" is demonstrably real and has measurable effects, "magic" is just another thing which can be, and must be, analyzed and understood by the scientific process, no different from magnetism or any other natural force which can be observed. There's absolutely no conflict at all, not even the appearance of one, in a guild that can use rituals and still has a scientific bent.

I'm not exactly sure what you're wanting, I guess.



No, that's not at all what I meant. I meant in terms of organizing principles for the guild and personal foci. Like paths. Like everyone deciding on a scientific focus. Except, like, I'm conceiving of players actually being able to define this, set this up, and RP it themselves as opposed to it needing to be a mechanically enforced thing.

Some people have raised mechanical problems with the skills, and I think that's a totally legit discussion to have. Every other objection raised so far just seems really poorly defined, to me. This thread is several pages long, and while I'm not saying I'm the sharpest saw in the shed, if I haven't gotten the idea by now, it may mean that there's not much of an idea to get. What is it, exactly, that you want? What is the big problem with Harmonics? That it seems so different than the other guardians? You seem to be just as upset at the things that are the same as the other guardians.

I'm not trying to be obtuse. I just really am trying to understand what the actual problem is. Maybe I even agree with you. I have no idea.

Like, say, folks who're on the 'bloodstone' path or whatever sphere correlates to bloodstone, they could be focused on the study of anatomy, the body and the way it works, healing and hurting it, etc. (because bloodstones make you bleed and that's a biological function)

Folks who're on the beyrl path or whatever the sphere is that correlates to beyrls, they could be focused on the study of psychology, sociology, and so on. (because beyrls help the ego and that's a psychological function)

Folks who're on the diamond path or whatever the sphere is that correlates to diamonds, they could be focused on the study of how energy affects matter. (because diamonds generate protective barriers and that's energy affecting matter)

And so on.

Paths don't have to be religious or mystical to fit. They can be a combination of science and mysticism or just plain science. They don't have to have a deep spiritual tie of any kind. They can represent different research groups, who focus on different kinds of research and experiments. Like departments in a University. Or like the House system in Harry Potter. Course those examples are really simplistic and all, but I'm hoping they kinda illustrate my idea.

Exactly. I think too many people are looking at science in a real world perspective of the word.
Do you think it's scientifically possible to have a metropolis made of crystal float the sky? No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll4ht6V2INQ

Background music for Continuum.

I provide < _ <

There are two issues really, mechanics and theme.

Mechanically the skill is far, far different from other guardians to the extent that we are more comparable to a different archetype.

Theme-wise, we're a science guild, yet except for an ooc reference, our skills don't give off this feel. The spheres are awesome, but the abilities we have from them are just... meh and confusing when compared to the awesome sounding spheres.

Also, just have a look through the skills. What exactly about harmonics is the same as other guardians?



But you see, the problem is that you are basing this off of the abilities. So, Researchers in the Quantitative Symmetry group would be biologists and Vindicated Convergence for psychologists?