I don't want to speak for Aiyana, but me, I am happy when folks volunteer ideas. If you have one, don't wait to be asked for it. For one thing, no one's a mind reader, getting "Someone has an idea for me!" vibes. You gotta be proactive. Send a message, write a letter. Even if it isn't used, the fact that you cared enough to offer will mean a lot.

But saying, "No one asked my opinion." That's just a little lazy. Especially if you're just going to complain about the work someone else did.

Oh yes, that does sound very similar. My memory is rather fuzzy on the particulars of the monk guilds, but I believe that the Ninjakari have used a similar system in the past. I had my only Ninjakari about a month after the guild was first released; I still remember because Ethelon was surprisingly nice to that character and it freaked me out a little, heh. I think that the other monk guilds also had similar advancement, but I'm not entirely sure. Regardless, the flexibility is very nice.

Sorry. I'm done.

It's good advice though. Why don't you send her your ideas now?

The argument was lost, the shame was too great. The graceful exit, the only road left.

The gif is the tactical nuke of internet arguments.

I'm not even sure how to categorize this amount of win.

So.. as the topic name suggests, what makes a good guild advancement? Does it have to start off full of flavour, fluff and boom bang explosions? Should it be a grocery/laundry list of tasks to lead into the FFBBE? Free and flowy, varied or stiff and set in stone?

Lots and lots of tentacles!

I'm kind of in a similar boat to Aiyana, in that no one wants to contribute ideas for better advancement in the Geomancers. I'm trying to come up with things, but so far all I've been told by other guild leaders is "Don't make it too complicated" and "Make everything optional and nothing mandatory."

It can be an uphill battle trying to get people to contribute ideas. I've asked for ideas and assistance from so many people. Thankfully, Vaylin ( ) is willing to help me and work with me, but few others seem to want to or care. So I understand your frustration that people are complaining and not actually offering ideas, Aiyana.

The point of advancement tasks in an IC fashion as well as OOC, is to give the player an orientation of the world beyond novicehood. If your system is too full of fluff, it will be easy and pointless. If your system is too full of boring, monotonous tasks your retention rate will suffer. Blending both of those concepts in creative and unique ways allows your guild to not only be original, but maintain interest with your lowbies.

Get it done quick and dirty to start and flesh it out after that. This way your GR1s have something to do and are not waiting in limbo for an advancement system that may or may not be weeks in coming. (given history of watching advancement systems being made)

You don't need some spectacular system, you just need enough that people can advance.

Basically, that.

I believe the question was what makes a good advancement system, not what system will suffice at the beginning of a guild having opened.

Actually if you re-read her post she asked specifically about at the start, which my answer was obviously addressing.


"Does it have to start off full of flavour, fluff and boom bang explosions?"

Does this mean my guess about the Illuminati was dead-on? I sympathize with and understand the choice: with so many people trying to advance, sometimes the flavorful stuff has to take a backseat to expedience until things settle down. It's not realistic to expect a handful of people (in this case, probably the GA and some sec/undersecs) to come up with the ideal advancement system in a short period of time when there's so much pressure to retain as many people as you can - and, as Gregori points out, you're not going to have great retention if the GR1s are waiting forever on an advancement test to become available.

Under the situation that the Illuminati face, I think that it would be best to nail all the essentials (basic curing, geography, skill use, and so on) for your first advancement but maybe work a short, personal "fluff" bit into the test as well. Perhaps a short paragraph on how they like the Illuminati so far, what they're looking forward to, what their goals are, or anything like that would be suitable. The Aquamancers do this with our "Children of Water" newbie clan: we make them post short introductions for everyone to read. It serves the dual purpose of trying to connect your newbies by introducing them to each other, and it lets them talk about what they're looking forward to, RP-wise, from the guild in the future. It doesn't have to be seriousface guild RP just yet. Also, it's easy to check a clan news posting to confirm that the aspiring guildie has indeed made the post - the only immediate issue I think the Illuminati will have is getting enough gold to create a newbie clan.

EDIT: I wonder how the Institute is handling this? It sounds like they'd be having similar problems.

Whispers has some very nice flavorful stuff. I think we've hit it spot on. Basics first, and then fluffier as you get higher.

One of the more difficult points of a beginning guild is, so many people want to advance and a total of three people can do it (four if you count the Patron and they want to help out).

But yes, this is mostly starting out since it's what the issue sprung from and what six guilds are dealing with right now. Future suggestions never hurt though!

So stop arguing.