I heard that someone commented to someone earlier today that the Institute was off and running from the start and Illuminati are a mess.

Now while I have no knowledge of the Institute (to my recollection I have no alts in Hallifax) so I can't say what their system is like, I would like to clarify one thing. The Institute has less overall work to get everything sorted and running than Illuminati. The Illuminati have 5 pathways that the Institute doesn't have that all are being worked on and written up. So obviously the Institute should be up and running faster, as it doesn't have the same work load. (this isn't to say they are not working to make their guild just as awesome, just that we have stuff they don't that needs to be dealt with as well)

/ ramble

I'm curious: since there seems to be this tidbit flying around that most Illuminati are choosing the Path of Gnosis, are you having trouble writing up something for the other four? I don't envy your GA's workload, but it sounds like you could maybe prioritize pathways if you're not already doing so. I'm not saying to drop the least popular in favor of the most, but I hope you guys have a clear idea of where you should be concentrating your efforts.

EDIT: I don't remember how many undersecretaries and secretaries the Illuminati have, but it sounds like they're getting close to the point of exhaustion too. Just hang in there, guys! Things will stabilize eventually, once the zerg alt rush dies down.

So far the Institute hasn't put up paths yet. Judging from the sheer number of Spheres and their complicated names, it will probably take a while for us to create solid niches of learning. Maybe we won't even base them on Spheres. Who knows?

Edit: Punctuation.

'Most Illuminati' would be the combatants, In fact gnosis doesn't even have anything written up for it in guild yet, and a few othjer paths do in fact have their helps up now. It's just that the Transformation pathway ( which is supposed to be the pathway for combatants) buff is honestly a bad choice, I hate to say that cause I am sure Estarra or whoever made the skillset had a good reason for choosing that, but unfortunately when it comes to what combatants will pick.. 2 passive auras, (1 perm from gnosis the other mutated as your aura mutation) are better than 1 active skill that tops at 200 damage on robes and 80 damage on plate.

Isn't that just traditional for the guardians? I don't recall Celestine/Nihilist combatants investing Methrenton/Ashtorath powers all that often. That also sounds like a problem that will hopefully get sorted out via Envoys or special report, but you may end up saying "Forget what the paths tell us they are, Gnosis is clearly the combat path because of the powers you get."

Looking over the wiki, though... I must say that Psychedelia looks very fun. Also, if I played a Manipulation Illuminati for whatever reason, I wouldn't be able to resist snapping whomever I was hypnotizing just before I gave the order.

Sorry about Gnosis not having a help file up yet. I sent a draft to Aiyana a few days back, but I haven't really heard back yet (but hey, she's been busy, so it's all right). Due to a chat with Xypher, however, I think I'm going to revise it to have set tasks instead of the current "custom made" idea that I had (that I kind of stole from Xypher).

I'll get it up soon. Prelate's honour.

This..this should automatically appear upon login for all GMs and GAs.

I got to look at the Institute's requirements, and while I can say 'geez, that's a lot' versus the Illuminati's (recently streamlined), they definitely do have a bit more flavour going on. Guess I'll have to work that one in.

The Institute requirements (up to GR3, where we are leaving off for the moment while we get all of the other things that need to be done taken care of) start with a laundry list and slowly transition to electives. The next stages, getting to GR5, will be similar to what we did with the Aeromancers, where advancement is based upon completion of a certain number of "course credits'" worth of tasks from a wide list.

And yeah, they're probably fairly substantial so far. If needed, we can streamline them, and we basically sat down and put them together in about an hour, hour and a half each, with the idea that we needed advancement now. Fine-tuning could come later. I'm fairly happy with how we've been able to work in flavor, if nothing else.

Also, I'd like to echo what's been said: ideas are nice. My undersecretaries and my secretaries (especially Kiradawea) have been amazing, but it's really stressful creating an advancement system that will probably be used for years.

Something I'm also facing with the Sentinels and speaking from my limited experience with them, while I agree that a system needs to be put in place as soon as you can (Yurika and Cas had three paths, combat/influence/literary covering GR3 -> GR10, myself and others focussed on a standard Nov -> GR3, all up within about a week of opening), there has to also be enough fluff to begin developing your guild's culture or you will soon be where we and the Shofangi are now, low membership and restructuring to try and make it viable.

From an outsider's POV, the Illuminati and Templars (Gaudiguch, in general), seem to have lots of flavour already so I don't think you will have that problem, but not having an alt I don't really know what people are complaining about either, maybe your advancement system could be better? Though obviously you also have that whole trusting people to harvest flesh thing, which would change things somewhat.

I'll include what I hope to do with the Sentinels as part shameless plug, part hope that it might attract someone to join us. If it gives you any ideas so much the better!

My aim for the Sentinel advancement system is to establish a stronger culture, because at the minute we're 'warrior-with-aeon' and that's it. I'm not that concerned with the exact requirements for each rank because they're mostly in place from our existing system and just need a bit of re-ordering and tweaking, though I think one path needs to be started from scratch again.

People have expressed frustrations elsewhere about how there was not enough focus on the temporal/time-travel side of things but really we are limited mechanically there, and as Aloysha has faced, RP'ing a time-traveller has gone down like a lead balloon with most people. The announcements during the recent anomaly event did help with the timecop focus and I think similar things would continue to help, but yeah, just how many anomalies and dominator invasions do we really actually want before they too become stale? You need to have enough in place so that you are not dependent on events, mini-events or areas to have any semblance of your own culture. They're nice yes, but the be-all and end-all of your identity? Not possible.

What I'd like our advancement system to be:

o Combat path - basically only a name-change needed from existing to try tie in with the culture more, otherwise it's your standard hack & slash your way up. I realize that we will have people who just want to fight. In my book we should keep them happy and use them for advertising when they post combat logs or are seen on deathsight. No reason why they should be prevented from advancing. Plus Hallifax needs more fighters.

o Influence/Service path - currently it's dependent on being around at the right time ie. revolts, which I've realized is a big no-no, having only been to maybe 4 revolts myself. Changing so that contributing to city/guild ministries/events etc is also included. The Company's vow will be the main influence here and will hopefully change preconcieved notions of our role within the city (warriors limited solely to being second-class citizens etc.). It also opens up some potential future RP, being already in place for when the military coup happens - 'We have declared martial law within the city. We are confining all researchers to the research labs for your own safety....Please comply or face euthanization!' (yeah, never going to happen, I know.)

o Culture/Exploration/RP path - Our existing system here is a standard scholarly/scientific one, write about temporal stuff etc. Problem with it is there's way too much writing/reading/lecturing required that it would turn off even the most prolific writers/RPers. This path also faces the problem of needing to retain a temporal focus for a warrior guild without being limited mechanically. My solution is to create the 'Ministry of Strategic Foresight', basically a bunch of futurologist military strategists who are trying to bring about the most preferable future (Hallifax's supremacy) by influencing cultures in the present AKA publishing propaganda, secret files on different areas (to allow questing and exploration to be favourable), anything else that falls into that vein, studies on temporal things obviously still included but I expect most of that to be done by the Institute.

I have a few more ideas to try and bring in more of the Strategic Foresight stuff, but I would like to get everyone on board and structures in place first. I'd also like to bring in some more Swiss Guard influences somewhere and start emphasizing polearms more, hopefully we would have established some ceremonies ready for if and when a polearm spec eventually makes it in. Timecop focus will still be there but without substantial changes to mechanics or relevant new areas, it will have to be a lesser part of our identity coming to prominence during anomaly events. I think this is justifiable with the whole restoration of the Temporal Conclave -> the Matrix more stable -> less monitoring of the timestream necessary.

Regarding the whingers, maybe it's just because I've been involved in highly competitive sports, but for me those who complain without having done anything to improve the situation aren't worth your time. If you get beaten or don't like something, you get off your ass and train/work ten times harder so that it will never happen again.

Seriously if you don't like the existing system, apply to be an undersec and see what is involved at the basic level. Done that and still not happy? Then offer ideas of how things can be improved, write scrolls, apply to be a secretary. Done that and still not happy? Contest and try implement your changes. Be ready to face someone ready to challenge your ideas around every corner.

Also, communication, coordination and delegation is important or you'll face burnout. Speaking of which, I need more undersecs! Alt up and be assimilated people!

TL;DR version?

- Get something in place as soon as you can so that you have more people to develop your cultural identity/uniqueness or face being one of the only people in the guild.
- Advancement system should be broad enough to cater for all tastes while still part of your overall culture.
- What is the point at keeping someone at a low guild rank? There is no need for draconian advancement requirements.
- Ignore complainers who don't contribute.
- come2Sentinels
- Wow, that turned out way longer than I planned.

There's a way different approach to novicehood advancement and guild advancement, but that's a given. For novicehood, I've always enjoyed when a guild has two separate lists, each resulting in a time advancement. That way, if you really want out of novicehood, you have to do both of them. The first of these needs to be getting your inventory in order. Getting basic herbs, vials, armor, weapons, description, and tack on a bit of city/commune geography. The second advancement is where the "flavor" needs to be, but it shouldn't be a test on how much lore a newbie knows. It should, instead, be "Who you are, why are you here, and what do you think our guild is about?" This way, a true newbie can make sure he or she really does understand what's going on around him, before he has to trash his character for a new one because he's already GR1 and now loses a boatload of lessons when he switches guilds.

As for guild advancement, I have to admit I'm really against having a list of tasks to get past GR5. In my perfect world, you'd only have tasks to get yourself to GR3. There should be a few areas, such as combat, influence, history, hunting, and exploration, and each area would have harder and harder tasks. Each task is assigned a point value, tasks early in the beginning of the areas rated less, those in the higher rated more. This way, someone who really loves combat can go all the way down the combat area to get GR3, but someone who is more a jack-of-all-trades must complete each area up to a little under halfway.

After GR3, there shouldn't be tasks to get rank. That's just stale, and seems to show guildrank as a number, not an honor. It should be hard to get past GR3, but not impossible. It should take volunteer work, helping novices, defending the guild/city/commune/planes, assisting on revolts, donating a boat-load of clothes/weapons/armor/money/credits because they are legitimately concerned for the guild. Undersecretaries and secretaries don't need a guild advancement for becoming one, either. The need guildfavors for doing their jobs well.

But, that's just in my perfect world, heh. Hope it helps!

I like having tasks you can accomplish to get guildranks because it gives direction to people who might not be self-motivated. Who flounder in a 'what can I do' sense without having instructions. Also, it gives a fall back so that no one is missed. If Bob can only play during off peak times when there's barely anyone around, all the awesome stuff he does might never or only rarely get seen while Jane, who plays when everyone is awake, gets favors left and right for doing half the work cause more people see her doing it.

BUT, I don't like being restricted to only being able to favor people who do tasks. If I'm online and see Bob or Jane doing something extra awesome for the guild, I'm going to favor them regardless of where they are in their path tasks.

So, I like a mix.

And, I don't think it should be hard to get guildrank. We have 19 of them! We should use them. Which isn't to say they should be handed out like candy, but if a person does their work, they get their rank.

To each their own

I have to agree with Noola, I'm currently living in EST so I'm on at a prime time, but soon I'll be moving and I wont be anymore, it wont be horrible, but my midnight will be around 8pm here. I wont always be around to help people, having tasks set out (especially in a small guild) means that people don't get ignored, because there are always message/letters to get in touch with.

I also feel that earning favours/rank shouldn't be difficult, this isn't to say they should be easy, but it shouldn't be like dangling a carrot in front of a horse and going oh well, too bad for you. You can't prove it. Templars have what I posted earlier on in the thread, the grocery list, and they also have a free range advancement.

I like advancement paths, they're an easy and great way to insert the guild fluff and flavour in even when the people who are supposedly in charge of it aren't always around. Face it, a lot of us are twenty-something and up, that means we have jobs, part time and full time, some of us have school such as university/college/trade school and we don't all live in the prime time zones.

Grocery list advancements are goals to work towards.

Edit: This doesn't mean they should be the only reason to favour, not at all! In fact, I like favouring people for good jobs or neat ideas!

Get working on that. Casilu's gotten me all excited about it and now I wanna RP it out!

More relevantly:

I agree with what Noola is saying, and that's what I'm trying to do with the Aeromancers. Right now it goes up to GR5 and then this points thing that isn't working as intended. And a large part of that is the undirected nature of the points system. So I'm gonna try to make it more specific and flavorful, and slowly lead up to self-directed things as they progress.

There are 19 ranks, if you spread the tasks out, then more people be willing to do them.

The only problem with there being 19 ranks is the obscene number of guildfavours it takes to increase rank, starting at about GR10.

EDIT: It effectively makes GR11 - 18 almost worthless to have coded, because it takes so much effort to get someone there... and if someone is working that hard, I'm pretty sure they can win a guild election and get the free GR19 when they step down/are replaced. Much less hassle and less spammy in the guild logs.

Highest I've ever seen anyone favoured without ever having to be a leader was Astrasia, who was like...14. And it took days upon days of BS favouring for her RL years of dedication to the Hartstone to get her that high.

That's why folks need to not be stingy with their favors, IMO.

Well, it would help if it didn't feel like you needed exponentially more guildfavours the higher your rank is. I mean, do we even know how many favours (with a GR19 or Leader favour weight) it takes to get someone from GR18 to GR19? I'm not even sure that's ever even been a GR19 who was promoted to that rank, instead of earning it through a leadership position.

Maybe the Divine could look into adjusting that a little? Maybe?

I think Solanis said it's something like 10 * current rank to get to the next one, where each favour is worth a number of points equal to your guildrank and each favour can only bump one rank. So a leader's favour will bump from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3, it will take two to get from 3 to 4, and so on. 18 to 19 is only nine leaders favours at that point, though, which seems low.