See, but now you are comparing two entirely different things.

Currently, you can basically say:

Temporary Insanity prevents 100% of 2% of actions.

Time Warp prevents 2% of 100% of actions.

If Time Warp is changed to affect quicksilver only, you can no longer say that Time Warp prevents on 100% of actions because quicksilver application is not 100% of your actions. The two skills no longer become comparable in a purely mechanical sense because they no longer operate under the same - or even, really, similar - conditions.

Edited to add: In reality, Temporary Insanity prevents 100% of 2% of all actions and Time Warp only prevents 2% of 100% of actions that take balance and/or equilibrium. Therefore, from a strictly mathematical sense, Temporary Insanity is a more effective skill than Time Warp. Note: I'm still not saying that it is overpowered or implying that it needs changing in any way.

Actually, taking that as a given is arguably inappropriate. I'm sure you genuinely see it that way, and honestly, I'm not going to go into the mutal death embrace that that argument would entail.

So, lets say it is a given.

It would be better in the sense that, if two people are walking down the beach, and both pick up a handful of useless sand. One of them has two more grains of sand than the other. You still have two idiots standing around with handfuls of dirt and not much to show for it.

The disingenuity in the issue is pretending that temp insanity is a meaningful tool, and so timewarp should be made meaningful. Temporary insanity is not, by any practical measure. Hence the through testing in the original post.

Prav, you're basing your arguments on a lot of wrong information.

Currently, TimeWarp delays commands, meaning you can give a reduced number of commands in a given time frame. Not quite the same as temporaryinsanity, because with TimeWarp you can guarantee that all actions in a combo (e.g. envenom/envenom/hit/hit) go through, but you also don't need to pray to the RNG.

Quicksilver prevents the aeon affliction, however takes several seconds to become effective. One of the report solutions is asking for timewarp to increase the time it takes to become effective, thus making aeon much easier to stick and making timewarp very powerful.

Temporary insanity is as effective a tool as timewarp - that is to say, they serve the purpose of gatewaying in to additional skills. There is no other purpose for them. They exist as another two sets of burn levels with which to do stuff with. Leaving them as stacks leaves a lot of design space for skills that, say, reduce the target's timewarp or tempinsanity in exchange for an effect, but all in all I wish they would do away with stuff like that (burn levels included, which IMHO should never have existed).

This doesn't address the point. You remind me of talking to Xenthos. Applying the balance loss (term used loosely to apply to the quicksilver delay) only to quicksilver simply means that you're applying the balance loss where it would really count. It would be akin to, philosophically, letting the insanity user choose which commands will be lost.

But aside from that, as the numbers clearly have demonstrated that temp insanity isn't anything like what the report is making it out to be, and so making timewarp afflict usefully in comparision, without suitably improving tempinsanity too, is grossly inappropriate. Its attempting to improve a skill based on a wildly inacurate description of another skill, then using that as a lever to get an improvement without any actual demonstration that the improvement, taken alone and by itself, is even appropriate or required.

I'm quite surprised why this wasn't brought up sooner.

Anyone else notice Gregori's passive aggressive responses, by the way?

Are you trying to draw me into this discussion?

I thought he was joking. O.o I used to run around with max level burns received from bashing and just not cure them (because, naturally, being in gaudi meant I didn't exactly need to worry about pyros), and I never noticed in the slightest.



I tried with the kitty comment about Shikari's realm earlier, but you didn't bite.

Well, they are keeping me quite busy.

Sarapis (Matt Mihaly) once made a very fine essay on Combat and Time and how in IRE Time > all. The further ahead in time you get against an opponent the more likely you are to win. This is why we had aeon and retardation and all that fun time slowing stuff. Timewarp slows all balance/eq commands by a marginal amount, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but any amount of slowing on an opponent is an equal amount of gain by yourself. Meaning, you are always pulling slightly ahead with timewarp. Temp insanity on the other hand is only ever pulling ahead if that 2% RNG procs, and you can ask any fighter in IRE how much they love RNG.
/ramble

In summary, the whole report is based off a fictional version of temp insanity. There has been nothing, even in this thread, to show that timewarp should be buffed up. Merely a misinformed statement that temp insanity is "world's apart" which it is not.

From memory, max burn levels is +1s to all balance loss.

It delays the recovery of balance and equilibrium commands, not the same as delays commands like you are stating it. Also you are making magnitude statements based on no information on the magnitude of the suggested change. So how can you say it will make sticking aeon much easier if you have no clue how much of an effect timewarp would have on the delay between quicksilver being sipped and it going into effect?

I agree it should not be buffed up, but I also agree that it could be changed to affect something more in line with what the skill-set is about. I would expect no change in the magnitude in effect between what it does for balance now and what it would do for quicksilver later (if it was changed).

It is not like solution two would create a means of making it harder to heal by punishing any attempts to cure it via focus mind.

If it's not noticeable there is no point in envoying it and if it is noticeable it's going to fall under Esano's prediction..

Catch 22.

There is no catch 22 besides the one in your mind. A change in focus for it can still be noticeable, and yet not be overpowered.

The point he's making is that if there's no change in magnitude, it's not worth wasting the time of everybody involved trying to push it through - because let's be honest, the magnitude at which timewarp's present, passive debuff does anything is mostly unnoticeable even at higher levels from what I'm told. Why try to prop Aeonics up on timewarp being changed when you can actually make the skillset.. you know.. good?

Many of you seem to have this need for everything to be absolutely obvious to you. If you can't see the benefits right off, it is not worth using. Well some of us can actually see how a small change that is not significant on one level, can be turned into something that is significant with a bit of tactical thinking. That being the case, how about you let us worry about whether it will be worth having, if you have it in your mind that the change would mean nothing to you.

This

Isn't this precisely what people concerned with increased quicksilver times are doing? Looking at a small change and saying "this could be overly significant"? And depending on the times involved, it well could, as Esano pointed out. Or, also depending on the times involved, it may not. I'm not going to sit here and pretend to have data on something that doesn't exist.

Nevermind, I see we're back to the "imply everyone else is an idiot" strategy of ye olde badlucke threade. Meh.




Unfortunately, trusting other people to behave objectively usually doesn't work out well. Especially when it boils down to theorycraft arguments. Our envoy system, special reports, and even player-designed monk skills scream the evidence of that.

Look, you know why I made this thread, in terms of inspiration to do so? It wasn't really because of the timewarp changes. The inspiration for making this was the absurd wording in 417, propping a 2% chance of command loss (at best) up like it is far more than it is, then using it as a lever to try and get changes made to timewarp. That's what it is. People can say "if only you understood the deep synergies involved the way I do, surely you would have my opinion!" All they want, but it boils down to demonstratable numbers. And inferring people are myopic dopes for not chugging the theorycraft kool-aide doesn't do anything other than demonstrate a less-than-supported opinion.

If the language had just been about timewarp alone, it wouldn't have even occured to me to post what temporary insanity actually does (indeed, it would have been bizzarely arbitrary to do so!), and so the thread wouldn't have happened. If the language hadn't been dramatically overstated to the point of absurdity, I probably wouldn't have bothered to do the testing.