Just in case anyone decides not to read what Akui posted, let's put the context back:



Personally, I wouldn't have started the thread, just because I don't think anyone is surprised to see an envoy make grandiose, incendiary statements to try to get a buff, even ones based on something so trivially disproven. In Gebland, badluck procs 92.7% of the time, and temporary insanity messes you up like a couple hours on Astral, because Geb is an envoy. It's just the way things are.

I don't get this impression of Geb at all.

We tested something in the arena the other day that was not acting as expected and worked hugely to the advantage of his spec. He reported it immediately because as he said, "although I'd like to use it wouldn't be fair to do so."

I realize its a game and everyone wants what is best for their class, but, there is no reason to not attempt to be objective. Sure, by all means focus on defending and protecting your class, but at the same time be willing to admit and give a little bit of ground when other people see the way your class works and want to emulate that harmony in their own skillset.

I don't think the goal here is to debuff Temporary Insanity or even necessarily buff Time Warp, the goal - as I see it - is to make the debuff applied by stacked Time Warps applicable and amenable to Researcher strategies, no matter how small it is. We essentially see that that is how things work for Temporary Insanity and - again, no matter how small - we want that kind of synergy within our skills as well.

Temporary insanity doesn't do anything by itself on any noticeable scale either though. Trying to buff 1 skill to be equal to 1 skill + others is the wrong way to do it.

Nor has anyone ever said that paradigmatics does not have great syngery. All that has been argued, by us at least, is that the report is trying to gain a buff to a single aspect of their skills, an aspect that is there mostly just as flavour since the real use of it comes in gaining enough levels to instakill not in gaining enough levels to aeon lock someone, based off a statement that is proven false.

Yes, we have skills that work well with temp insanity, but again, temp insanity by itself is negligble. It is not worlds apart from timewarp.

Continually screaming "but you have this as well!" does nothing because the report is not about what we have as well, it is about making timewarp the same, or better, as temp insanity in power, and... it already is the former.

Exactly, glad you understand.

This is precisely what we want as well: For Time Warp - no matter how negligible by itself - to work well with our skills.

And, no its not.

If you would like I can show you the math to prove it but I hope that that is unnecessary.

Sure, they're both negligible and they're both relatively innocuous, but in a purely mathematical sense the effect of Temporary Insanity is strictly, irrefutably and provably superior to the effect of Time Warp.

Okay, we obviously have to change one of our skills to one that increases equilibrium/balance even more.

So you should be looking at how to make your skills work better with timewarp, not make timewarp more powerful so it becomes a standalone skill. Because again, maybe if it is said enough times it will sink in...by themselves timewarp and temp insanity are both negligible and are meant to be.

So we should be looking at how to make all of the skills in our Aeon-based skillset work better with one skill rather than making one skill (Time Warp) work better with all of the skills in our Aeon-based skillset?

That argument makes no sense, the only thing it makes is more work for the developers.

I think what the Gaudi side is saying is that timewarp, even if changed to be 'more useful' (we'll say they used solution 2), it will probably confer about as much help as a full tempinsanity does (i.e. not much by itself). I don't get the impression that they overly care, but it seems to me that they just want to point out what it is you or may not be getting into.

With that said, I was a bit serious that insanity stacked with other gaudi skills provides a much better synergy than timewarp and whatever else (NOT BETTER THAN CHOKE + ANYTHING THOUGH LOLOLOL), and I personally feel that solution 2 of that report will help address -this- problem nicely.

The end.

My turn to rant.

However, since the choke flag was already raised earlier, and I brought it up against, on top of this thread made to talk about overly dramatic reports, I still can't quite get over the fact that report problem said new choke was a 'bit-shortsighted' and then went to seriously suggest that a solution was to make fae not work in choke, the same fae that wiccans need to fight people. Admittedly, the solutions discussed via comments were far more palatable and I liked Raeri's solution myself, but I don't have any expecations that even if this change were to happen (not solution 1 oh god), all you guys would stop complaining. Just can't win man.

Btw in case no one knows: Raeri wants to make choke more or less octave that needs a target. I'm fine with that so long as the window of time between choke fading after moving rooms was extended back to its original 3s.

End rant.

Uh, timewarp adds time to every balance/eq gain. -every- balance/eq gain... did I mention every balance/eq gain?

Now, let's for argument's sake say that time is .25 seconds ( I have no clue what it really is, but hey, this is the forums and I am an envoy, I have learned recently that you don't have to be right so I will throw out a wild number) and I do 50 bal/eq actions. That's 12.5 seconds of delayed balance/eq for me. Which is 12.5 seconds of extra time to get ahead for you.

Now let's look at temp Insanity and it's 2% chance to proc on any action. Assuming it procs at all, it doesn't actually take any time from you, other than the time to resend the action that got eaten, in a proper system that time is less than 200 milliseconds. So let's say for arguments sake you make 100 actions and by sheer fluke of the RNG you fail all of them. That means you lost a total time of 20 seconds by having to resend commands. That's if you failed all 100 actions, which is not likely to ever happen.


Edit:: Just as a test I did QL 100 times at massive insanity with only 3 failures. The time to resend that command via pushing enter key manually was 260 milliseconds, total time lost therefore was less than 1 second.

Seems I owe Saran an apology. I was testing via focus mind before and pennyroyal at only a couple times passed massive, but there appears to be a secret cow level where you can make massive last a little longer. 10 + revelations passed massive requires 5 pennyroyal to eat. Of course, it should be noted that if we have you at massive you are probably dead anyways, but just for the sake of testing again I did and you can drag out the massive if you want.

It was stated that the delay from timewarp, at massive, is 113ms. That is, approximately, a 3.8%* increase on a 3s balance or equilibrium action.

It was stated that Temporary Insanity has a 2% chance of eating a command.

For the sake of easy math, and to simply assume the absolute best case scenario on the part of your argument, let's assume that both affect at an equal rate of 2%. That is, lets assume that Temporary Insanity eats exactly 2% of commands and assume that Time Warp increases balance/equilibrium time by exactly 2%.

These assumptions work in your favor, however, mathematically your argument is still invalid. Let's examine:



I made the assumption that 30% of actions in combat consume balance, this number seems high, however, that - again - works in favor of your claims.

There are 100 squares, each square is made up of 100 pixels.

Blue squares are non-balance consuming actions.

Green squares are balance consuming actions.

Red squares (and pixels) are actions or partial actions consumed by Time Warp or Insanity, respectively.

As you can see, despite making a full set of assumptions beneficial to your claims, the mathematical truth of the matter is - despite wildly exaggerated claims in respect to the efficiency of Timewarp - that the effect of Insanity is mathematically superior to the effect of Time Warp.

Of course, this neglects the fact that you can simply re-send the action after Insanity eats it. However, that introduces too many variables into the model: commands lost in Aeon = 1s lost, lost envenoms, lost partial attacks, etc. Those variables cannot be accounted for in this system unless you want to assign some arbitrary value to them - which, you did: 200ms - in which case the entire model is unstable and factually inaccurate.

If you wish to properly account for your variables, I will continue listening to your claims, however, until then, the model you have provided is inaccurate at best and factually misleading at worst.

* Edit: Originally miscalculated at .38%, which makes a good portion of this inaccurate, however, even if you double the original amount prevented/slowed by Time Warp, you still end up with 1.2 actions prevented by Time Warp versus 2 actions prevented by Insanity.

And, all of the above is basically irrelevant since nobody is asking for a buff to the proc rate or duration of Time Warp, they are simply asking that the debuff provided by Time Warp be applied to something beneficial - rather than irrelevant - to the class.

So, you have 30 balance/eq actions at 113 ms.

Versus 2 failed actions at <= 200 millisecond.


3.39 seconds delay vs. <= 400 milliseconds delay.

Constant guaranteed delay over RNG based probabilities.

Yup, insanity definately wins.

Making pretty pictures to handle basic math doesn't increase the validity of your arguement, btw.

Because in the end it still comes down to Insanity is not worlds apart, or superior. I will trade you consistent balance/eq malus for RNG based chances any day if you think it is superior.

Can you provide the proofs necessary to validate this assumption?

No, I don't know what a timestamp is. Sorry.

Oh em gee, guys, let's argue whether the loss of an action at a rate that's practically zero with no delay to hit the button again is worse than slowing balance by some amount that's roughly commensurate with unavoidable latency.

PS: Prav, you stuck the decimal in the wrong spot.

I'll assume from your segue into unprovoked passive aggressive insults that you are no longer interested in rational discussion on this matter.

The bottom line is this: The effect of Time Warp - no matter how negligible - does not contribute to any strategy afforded to Researchers; as you stated above...



...we just want to match this harmony-between-skills, even if it is negligible, every little bit helps.

EDIT: Hey, you edited out the point aimed at me, so this no longer makes sense.

Ha, yeah, working on updating the original post now, in between trying not to bleed to death.