Malarious2010-08-20 19:05:56
QUOTE
Report #428 Skillset: Alchemy Skill: Regeneration
Guild: Tahtetso Status: Rejected Jul 2010
Problem: Currently regeneration works differently from other cures. Once applied it has a delay of 4 seconds and then attempts to cure any affliction it can according to its priority order. Which on legs is currently, from first to last: Amputated, Mangled Leg, Severed Tendon, Cracked Kneecap, Shattered Ankle. The resulting order allows for a state of prone curable only with green/gedulah or allheale since cracked kneecaps do not cost momentum for those who can do shattered ankles.
Solution #1: Regeneration should behave as other cures, if you do not have an affliction it can cure when you apply it does not attempt to cure anything after its normal delay (remove the ability to pre-apply). Along with this move Shattered Ankle to cure before Cracked Kneecap, thereby removing the capacity to permanently prone someone.
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Guild: Tahtetso Status: Rejected Jul 2010
Problem: Currently regeneration works differently from other cures. Once applied it has a delay of 4 seconds and then attempts to cure any affliction it can according to its priority order. Which on legs is currently, from first to last: Amputated, Mangled Leg, Severed Tendon, Cracked Kneecap, Shattered Ankle. The resulting order allows for a state of prone curable only with green/gedulah or allheale since cracked kneecaps do not cost momentum for those who can do shattered ankles.
Solution #1: Regeneration should behave as other cures, if you do not have an affliction it can cure when you apply it does not attempt to cure anything after its normal delay (remove the ability to pre-apply). Along with this move Shattered Ankle to cure before Cracked Kneecap, thereby removing the capacity to permanently prone someone.
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
QUOTE
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Bollocks."
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Thats what it is, bollocks."
(Something Monkish): You say, "Now the question is how to best handle it from there."
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Make kneecap a regen wound use momentum."
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Its already a light wound no momentum.. That way make it hampering some."
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Thats what it is, bollocks."
(Something Monkish): You say, "Now the question is how to best handle it from there."
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Make kneecap a regen wound use momentum."
(Something Monkish): Glint (from the Aetherways) says, "Its already a light wound no momentum.. That way make it hampering some."
Glint isnt happy, but we tried to think it out some more.
QUOTE
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "They rejected 428."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Wth."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Wth."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Wth."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Don't they understand that it makes it impossible?"
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Wth."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Wth."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Wth."
(Something Monkish): Sahmiam says, "Don't they understand that it makes it impossible?"
We are a very unhappy monk team, all four guilds are in there and we just want to know why the report was rejected. This severely hampers our progress
We have not seen the Shofangi or Nekotais reaction yet, hence why they are not posted.
Unknown2010-08-20 19:09:18
Explain? I know what pre-applying means, but I never did understand when one would know to pre-apply it, and I also don't understand how this hampers you so greatly.
It's just one of those tricks that a few people have learned to use, like applying regeneration to multiple body parts or using Summer/Tipheret to get out of entanglements or eating earwort at just the right moments.
It's just one of those tricks that a few people have learned to use, like applying regeneration to multiple body parts or using Summer/Tipheret to get out of entanglements or eating earwort at just the right moments.
Malarious2010-08-20 19:18:40
QUOTE (Zarquan @ Aug 20 2010, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Explain? I know what pre-applying means, but I never did understand when one would know to pre-apply it, and I also don't understand how this hampers you so greatly.
It's just one of those tricks that a few people have learned to use, like applying regeneration to multiple body parts or using Summer/Tipheret to get out of entanglements or eating earwort at just the right moments.
It's just one of those tricks that a few people have learned to use, like applying regeneration to multiple body parts or using Summer/Tipheret to get out of entanglements or eating earwort at just the right moments.
The major goal of the change was to make Regeneration function more properly. Right now you can be perma proned by a Tahtetso (the guild who requested the change) because they can kneecap for free so you can never cure shattereankles and are stuck prone.
The pre-apply was an attempt to equalize things like the insta which would be made alot harder, but if you keep pre-applying for their insta you can stop them outright.
Most of what you just called "tricks" are just examples of good system coding.
Unknown2010-08-20 19:22:05
I still don't understand how you know to pre-apply. Are you just applying regeneration every four seconds after you get attacked by a Tahtetso? That's a waste of salve and salve balance.
Yes, it functions differently from the other cures. It's been that way for over a decade. It's a feature. No, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way, but you need a better argument than this, apparently.
P.S. All the best systems use lots of tricks. That's what makes them so good.
Yes, it functions differently from the other cures. It's been that way for over a decade. It's a feature. No, it doesn't mean it has to stay that way, but you need a better argument than this, apparently.
P.S. All the best systems use lots of tricks. That's what makes them so good.
Unknown2010-08-20 19:37:36
Tahtetso insta requires you to be sprawled in order to kill you.
Shattered ankles is a regen cure that prevents standing, which is something that a) automatically increases monk damage by 50%,
is one of the requirements for a hardlock, and c) is one of the requirements for tahtetso insta.
Kneecap prevents stancing, but does not prevent standing. Kneecap cures before shattered ankles. See the problem? A tahtetso can keep you permanently on the ground by shattering your ankle and then keeping it buried beneath cracked kneecap, and the ONLY way you can stand again is to use green/gedulah.
The report's first goal was to fix the regen priorities and secondly to eliminate the ability to preapply.
Shattered ankles is a regen cure that prevents standing, which is something that a) automatically increases monk damage by 50%,
is one of the requirements for a hardlock, and c) is one of the requirements for tahtetso insta.Kneecap prevents stancing, but does not prevent standing. Kneecap cures before shattered ankles. See the problem? A tahtetso can keep you permanently on the ground by shattering your ankle and then keeping it buried beneath cracked kneecap, and the ONLY way you can stand again is to use green/gedulah.
The report's first goal was to fix the regen priorities and secondly to eliminate the ability to preapply.
Gregori2010-08-20 19:43:27
Maybe if you had envoyed the curing order to be fixed, instead of trying to buff monks (lol causetheyneedthat) with a slight "oh yeah fix the curing order cause of tahteso" tacked on at the end the report would have been more understood and more likely to be approved.
Unknown2010-08-20 19:48:14
QUOTE (Gregori @ Aug 20 2010, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe if you had envoyed the curing order to be fixed, instead of trying to buff monks (lol causetheyneedthat) with a slight "oh yeah fix the curing order cause of tahteso" tacked on at the end the report would have been more understood and more likely to be approved.
Umm....that's what the report does?
Sidd2010-08-20 19:55:38
Solution #1: Regeneration should behave as other cures, if you do not have an affliction it can cure when you apply it does not attempt to cure anything after its normal delay (remove the ability to pre-apply). Along with this move Shattered Ankle to cure before Cracked Kneecap, thereby removing the capacity to permanently prone someone.
this is what he means by tacked on, it's mentioned in the solution as an afterthought, while removing the pre-apply aspect of regen, you are increasing monk's potential, especially ninjakari and tahtetso. Everyone probably agrees that the cure order could be changed, but instead of trying to fix one problem, you added one major buff with an afterthought mention of a needed change
Should have straight up tried to change the order without any other change
this is what he means by tacked on, it's mentioned in the solution as an afterthought, while removing the pre-apply aspect of regen, you are increasing monk's potential, especially ninjakari and tahtetso. Everyone probably agrees that the cure order could be changed, but instead of trying to fix one problem, you added one major buff with an afterthought mention of a needed change
Should have straight up tried to change the order without any other change
Vathael2010-08-20 19:57:53
Zarquan, I think this is less about "tricks" and more about a mechanical flaw causing you to not be able to cure out of a proned state against a tahtetso. I don't see anything having to do with pre-apply in here. If we were talking about ninjakari on the other hand...
Unknown2010-08-20 19:59:32
Actually, most of the report is about the pre-applying of regeneration and the curing order is the afterthought.
Vathael2010-08-20 20:01:55
Oh I see what you are talking about... Anyway, they are talking about uncurable prone due to affliction stacking, not preapply like sidd said.
Unknown2010-08-20 20:05:39
I know! I definitely agree the curing order should be fixed, but the pre-apply is fine, especially against monks who give you two regeneration afflictions with each combo.
Unknown2010-08-20 20:07:20
The report problem clearly focuses on the curing order.
And if you read the comments on the report, there was mixed support for changing pre-apply.
And if you read the comments on the report, there was mixed support for changing pre-apply.
Xavius2010-08-20 20:07:49
The only issue I see here is that there's a monk guild that gets to use Axelord's heavy leg wound trivially while stacking it with another regen cure on the same limb. The real solution is to take that away.
But hey, this is a Malarious thread, and we can't have anything that draws attention to issues that might interfere with him getting everything he wants. Once the monk nerfs start down the chute, there's no way Ninjakari can avoid their due.
But hey, this is a Malarious thread, and we can't have anything that draws attention to issues that might interfere with him getting everything he wants. Once the monk nerfs start down the chute, there's no way Ninjakari can avoid their due.
Vadi2010-08-20 20:15:45
The report really should ask to remove pre-apply and give regen a chance to fail (while taking up balance). It just seems to be begging for more OP, and the Furies decision certainly is the sane one.
Unknown2010-08-20 20:15:57
QUOTE (Xavius @ Aug 20 2010, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only issue I see here is that there's a monk guild that gets to use Axelord's heavy leg wound trivially while stacking it with another regen cure on the same limb. The real solution is to take that away.
But hey, this is a Malarious thread, and we can't have anything that draws attention to issues that might interfere with him getting everything he wants. Once the monk nerfs start down the chute, there's no way Ninjakari can avoid their due.
But hey, this is a Malarious thread, and we can't have anything that draws attention to issues that might interfere with him getting everything he wants. Once the monk nerfs start down the chute, there's no way Ninjakari can avoid their due.
Be my guest to read the latest reports from Ninjakari. It's quite easy to resort to ad hominim attacks, no? Unfortunately they aren't just a logical fallacy, but are easily contradicted by facts.
My reports as envoy: 387, 404, 427, 450. 450 was posted in "Envoy This".
Unknown2010-08-20 20:17:11
Report 428 seemed more about removing pre-applying (which both ninjakari and tahtetso benefit from) than any actual serious attempt at changing the cure order. If you really were all about the latter, why not just envoy that and -only- that.
While we're at it, all the recent monk reports have been both requests for buffs in addition to supposed to nerfs. Report 450 asks for a reduction in momentum level, but you're ALSO asking for a 25% DECREASE in balance time? When people already complain about monks comboing at 2s or less? Heh.
Edit: increase vs. decrease fail
While we're at it, all the recent monk reports have been both requests for buffs in addition to supposed to nerfs. Report 450 asks for a reduction in momentum level, but you're ALSO asking for a 25% DECREASE in balance time? When people already complain about monks comboing at 2s or less? Heh.
Edit: increase vs. decrease fail
Xavius2010-08-20 20:19:45
QUOTE (Sahmiam Mes'ard @ Aug 20 2010, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Be my guest to read the latest reports from Ninjakari. It's quite easy to resort to ad hominim attacks, no? Unfortunately they aren't just a logical fallacy, but are easily contradicted by facts.
My reports as envoy: 387, 404, 427, 450. 450 was posted in "Envoy This".
My reports as envoy: 387, 404, 427, 450. 450 was posted in "Envoy This".
Yes, I am aware that you're trying to envoy monks to be faster twice in a row, because you are just as afraid of a level playing field. I wouldn't brag about this.
Vathael2010-08-20 20:23:23
I too am in the don't remove pre apply boat too as well I agree with the statement of MONKS SHOULD NOT USE WARRIOR AFFLICTIONS but I don't see the second ever being fixed. Warrior works off rng, monk does not, a lot of warrior devastating affs are swings and have a chance to hit the wrong limb, monks do not, warriors have to build a lot of wounds to do the great afflictions, again monks do not. To add on top of this monks can do it faster than warriors can. 
I know I'm not the only to see the issue here.
Also I'm all for giving warriors hyperactive.
I know I'm not the only to see the issue here.Also I'm all for giving warriors hyperactive.
Unknown2010-08-20 20:25:19
