Yeah heh, it's pretty lame that for all the complaints about monks hitting too quickly, they're still envoying for further speed boosts.

Monks can't get below 2.3 seconds as per testing (excluding hyperactive), so people complaining about <2s combos is based from bad information.


Once again, Xavius, logical fallacy.

The mo boosters are to boost momentum. +2 mo is too must at one time, so I'm decreasing how much momentum they give over time. Let's not forget that they're 2-handed actions, count as only 1 jakari/shofa/nekai/taht-whatever, and only apply 1 poison. Oh, and they don't give additional afflictions! It'd be stupid for someone to use them twice in a row, anyway.

2 momentum in 2.3 seconds is not faster than 2 momentum in 3.45 seconds (if you're stupid and do 2 in a row).


Anyway, I won't be responding to further logical fallacies or attacks against my character. It's slightly annoying and just encourages ignorance.





Report 428: the solution may have been poorly worded, but the emphasis WAS on the cure order.

Wow I go to get Tacos and the Threat seems to have jumped around a bit... lets see.. in no order...

The change to regeneration was not meant as a "monk buff", it was intended to fix Tahtetso and that is why we had the Tahtetso submit the report. You can laugh about it, but the report was serious, similarly the report after that one for Tahtetso was to remove perma-plegy, where they can hemiplegy twice back to back. At the same time we are trying to offer something else (windpipe) to give them another goal to aim for with the heavy damage to try to prevent their insta from being easy.

As for the cracked afflictions, we really dont think they should be as easy as they are, two of the guilds can actually give two cracked limbs at once and gain momentum on it. This is changing but with the setup from regeneration we are trying to reconsider the best way to handle all of it so we dont run into issues where we put in a nerf then a buff and the nerf fails.

Chances are we will make a little report and show the divine the intent of the changes so they know where we are going.

Editied for Sahmiams post above

As a monk, we expect the bias. What we don't appreciate is the way that you can't even ask for one tiny little change that needs to be made for balance (changing the regeneration curing order to prevent the perma-prone) without asking first to have the regeneration salve itself changed first.

Monks need nerfs for so many reasons, but you're not willing to accept that, so we end up with threads like these time and time again. I don't care if the balance time is 2.3 seconds with or without Hyperactive, it's too fast even at that speed, so throwing Hyperactive on top of that is completely ridiculous.

Look instead at the rate of afflictions versus balance times or the rate of hindering versus the optimal speed of curing and you might start to find a semblance of balance there.

I am fairly sure that all the monks people complain about can and do use hyperactive to buff their speed up to retarded levels. You can't dismiss hyperactive just like that.

The fact that monks can get to 2.3 seconds balance without hyperactive speaks volumes about them. You know warriors can get to about 3s balance on a good day, but their affs are much less reliable and are harder to acquire than a monks, right.

Edit: Iasmos makes a good point about number/rate of afflictions vs. curing speed/balance time too.

You baffle me. You seem to genuinely be defending the status quo. Oh noes, you can't get below three attacks every 2.3 seconds without racial speed or hyperactive? Whatever shall we do? We're only 40% faster than warriors with our guaranteed afflictions every attack! Wait, I've got it. We'll boost our kicking speed so we can stun more!

But no, no, keep going, eh? I mean, if it's not ok for Tahtetso to give cracked kneecaps with 125 ka attack, what'll happen when people notice that Ninjakari can give cracked kneecaps and elbows as a 75 ka modifier? Then, once they notice that, they'll notice that Ninjakari can mangle limbs from 2mo.

Resign. Really. Resign.

They don't complain about me then! Feel free to show a log otherwise, as the last time I used hyperactive outside an arena-testing, pvp environment was months ago. And then I think I've only ever used it 3 times total.

2.3s is an outlier achieved via 1400 credits and race specing. I know warriors that are faster than 3s, but as we're talking about "on a good day," a monk on a good day gets about 2.8-3.1s balance times.

Hyperactive is on the nerfling block. I don't "dismiss it" as in ignore it, but rather recognize that it is in it's on category of OP. I'd rather not balance around it as I'd prefer to eliminate it.

Zarquan: I do look at those things. The optimal speed of curing can handle a Ninjakari fairly well, but I'm aware that it's still a bit too much.

Edit: Cracked kneecaps and elbows, for a ninjakari, require mo4, heavy wounds, and cause momentum loss regardless if they hit or not. It requires a jakari attack for 75ka, for a total of 150. No other jakari modifiers affect limbs. Modifier is ninughi

Ninjakari can't mangle limbs at 2mo. 2mo grants 350 total ka, Ashlamkh alone requires 350ka and requires a broken limb beforehand. Akogh costs 200ka, for a total of 550 (mo4), or if you want to try the wounds-based broken leg from ninughi, 150ka + 350 for 500(mo4) total. If we do it across 2 forms, all broken affs cause momentum loss requiring mo3 to be reduced to mo2. But then why break and lose momentum to mangle when we can gain momentum to break and mangle in the same form at mo4? End results are at level 1mo with chance of not working (Xavius's claim) versus ending at mo2 (the correct way).

See, in my world, when you can give two regen cures in a combo that's faster than a single regen salve application delay, there's no "optimal speed of curing" that makes it work. That's a trite soundbite to try to placate people.

This is pretty much what we saw from it.

Look, monks are the easiest class to play. No other class can stack so many regen afflictions in such a short space of time. You have the afflictions of multiple warrior specs put together, can afflict a lot faster and also with a lot more certainty. It's pretty obvious when envoys try to "nerf" their class but forget to mention the part where they are buffing it in other ways in their debates.

Just because -you- for some reason don't choose to whore out your wtfbananas skill doesn't mean everyone else does the same

And likewise, I know warriors can get below 3s speed, but at the expense of precision, which is kind of important if you want to pvp. Basically, all I am saying is that in order to get speedy, a warrior has to give up other facets important to their pvp. Monks don't really have to give up much. Plus the whole 'monks are about 500% more reliable in giving afflictions than warriors' thing (slight exaggeration before you go call me out on it).

And if hyperactive is on the nerfing block, why didn't you envoy that instead of yet another speed boost or ninini? That skill is used far more often.

So, I'm not really up in the current envoy procedures, but are people really expecting monk nerfs to come from the monk envoys? I couldn't tell you who the envoys are, so I can't say if they're biased or not, but it seems to me like it would make a lot more sense for a good old-fashioned envoy smack-down from the other guilds if you really want to see things happen (and its still doable under the current envoy system). That way monks can be completely unusable (see: Cantors) and everyone will be happy!

No, we're not. We're just not expecting monk envoys who don't get their buffs to come and whine about on the forums.

Ninjakari can double mangle in a single form, which is the only way we can put two regen cures in a single form. Both limbs must be broken, so you throw in akogh. 2x ashlamkh (700) + akogh (200) is 900ka. Throw in speed for 1000ka total. The double mangle isn't guaranteed to hit as it requires calcise to hit from either beast spit or the first asklamkh. It also doesn't sprawl the target. Regardless of the success of the form, it causes -3mo, placing a monk at mo2.

And then if report 450 goes through, it's impossible for a ninjakari to immediately go back to mo4 (the level monks can do the "ridiculous" stuff). If you spam the suggested mo boosters, assuming the amazing outlier of 2.3s balance time, it'd take 5.175s to regain the momentum (and no afflictions except those from the poison). It only takes 6s to cure the mangles. If you assume the common speeds of a monk, it'd take the monk 6.075s to 6.75s to regain the momentum.



I would greatly appreciate it if it were read the other way. I can't speak for Glint, but I'm fairly confident he would agree with me.

The problem states the problem is the order it cures, solution be damned we (EDIT:) thought we made the issue clear and it was ignored.

Also, to those complaining about hyperactive.. I dont use it, it should be removed like I said when I was a NIHILIST for gods sakes.

I cannot fault anyone who isnt a monk from knowing what we are talking about (although Something Monkish inductors are waiting to induct sior and roark whenever you two want to join to see what we are working on). I assure you all though that the first goals are to tone some things down, the speed thing is being addressed in terms of momentum speed (hence removing +2 mo).

PS. Sior, would you approve a report of about 6 slots that would handle all 4 monk guilds at once? (anything else in the report so far is bugs people have been waiting on).

Yeah it's kind of funny that these monks keep hammering on the 'we gain LESS MOMENTUM guys' angle and fail to talk about or address the other part to their "solution", the 'btw we also GET FASTER in return' part.

What's your solution then?

The mo boosters are supposed to increase momentum better than other monk skills. My report nerfs them while keeping their original functionality. Feel free to provide a solution that does the same thing. If you reduce it to just 1mo without the speed increase, then it just kills the skills. No one would choose to use a two-handed action that does less than any other 2 one-handed actions do. +1 momentum or +1 momentum + afflictions. It's that choice.

The other route would be to have them keep +2 mo functionality, but actually increase the balance time. You all may like the sound of that, but I promise that that nerf is less severe. 4.2 seconds for +2 momentum across 2 forms or 3.5 seconds for +2 momentum across one forms. Guess which is more reliable and faster? A 25% reduction in bal time across 2 forms is the same as a 50% increase in one form, and I think you could only get by with a 25-33% increase in balance time without again, killing the skills.

I think your math is making a few assumptions there, like the fact that the percentages are what you want to equate and not the total balance time.

Why not just delete boost. Can you name me one situation where you actually -need- boost to get your kill instead of just getting it faster.

Warriors don't have a similar move except lunge, etc., but we all know you can cure wounds, but you can't cure momentum.