Don't worry, the monk envoys have thought of that too!




I'm sure the real intent was to give monks passive succor, amnesia, and def stripping though. This is just an unforeseen consequence.

You tried to piggy-back a big change to one of the guilds onto what is a required change to a mechanic for all of the guilds.

If you separated the issues out so that each could be evaluated on its own merits they both would have had a much better chance of succeeding.

Suggested future reports:

#1 Get rid of pre-applying - as per the first sentence of report 428

Regeneration should behave as other cures, if you do not have an affliction it can cure when you apply it does not attempt to cure anything after its normal delay (remove the ability to pre-apply).

#2 Reverse ankle/kneecap curing order and give a viable method of applying windpipe for tahtetso

I'd also like to point out, once agian, that those complaining about tahtetso "perma-prone" are being misleading. It can be cured with a range of things if identified early. See my response to #428 for the details.

It is particularly ironic that the loudest complaints come from those who capable of delivering a mechanically enforced "perma-prone" (rather than one caused by poor curing). Tendon followed by mangle for only 1mo anyone?

I'm having trouble reading into this one. Help me out: are your being serious or sarcastic here? And I mean this sincerely.

EDIT: Had to re-read your post (and some previous responses) to put this in context. I take your first comment as sarcastic, and second comment as serious.

I personally question the intention of giving monks psionics as a way to spec to psymet. That succor-like ability, amnesia, and def stripping have little play into psymet combat strategies. Psionic mechanics is more of a self-defeating hinderance towards monk momentum. Would love to see this somehow rectified. Cell adjustment is quite unfortunate, and should be able to work more like Beast Empathy (I have no experience with transmute). Again, not sure how to get the mechanics to behave as such with the current psionic mechanics.

Just look in my sig for Envoy proposals on psionic recovery times for psymet monks AND cell adjustment.

Tendon does not meet the requirements for ashlamkh's mangle, so the break must come from either another ashlamkh or akogh. That's -2mo. The only way I was able to keep a permaprone on Ixion was a successful double mangle followed by a ninshi/tendon to rebuild the momentum loss and then rinse and repeat. With the most recent envoy changes, Ninjakari can't use the ninshi/tendon to rebuild the momentum, and it's now less effective and perhaps nonexistent. I haven't tested it's effectiveness with the changes.

As tendon stops curing a leg break you can get broken leg from: beast spit calcise, envenomed calcise on the yank, or the two weapon strikes on the form that gives mangle. Thems are some good odds of getting a tendon + mangle for 1mo.

Perspective I guess....

The fact that Tahtetso can still permaprone all the day long seems to have been swallowed up by the maw of utterly insane histrionics in this thread.

right, active cures such as powercures, allheale, and others are the only way to prevent tahtetso perma prone, and you don't see this as too much in anyway?

The report was... well, the admins probably considered it an insult to their intelligence. Or the posters were really unaware it could be read that way and thus don't deserve better.

Anyway, as for nerfing monks. The problem with monks is to a large extent the upper part of the speed scale. Cap it lower and one part of the deal is done. Or make damage and precision more interesting for monks to get on their weapons, although, with a range of only 30 points from lowest to highest forgeable for ONE stat and a range of a whole 50 points you can get from artifact, race and skill boni to ALL stats, something would need to be changed about the former and/or the latter.

One thing to consider with monks is that they rely almost solely on afflictions. Some have skills specifically designed to build up wounds, but in terms of killing, those only pave the way to damage kills.
So if you nerf monks' affliction output AND damage, be careful not to leave them without anything, since they're not an attrition class like warriors. Monks can build some wounds, but wounds don't put your victims into kill condition, maybe crunch excepted.

I have at no point claimed this. I'm guessing you either haven't read or haven't understood my response to the report.

I really don't want to mire myself in this argument any further so will just leave it at that.

By the way, this is continuing a derail, but I wanted to weigh in on the discussion about report 450.



I see alot of people raising concerns that the report is speeding up monks even more under the guise of a cleverly worded nerf. There are two types of monks being "fast", being fast at building momentum (and getting to their reliable and powerful afflictions) or just being fast with the afflictions itself. For monks to become "faster" with this report, they either have to get momentum faster, or give out afflictions faster. Even with the 25% (or 35%) speed increase, making mo-boosters give +1 instead of +2 mo means they gain momentum slower. So, the only concern is whether or not a form with a mo-booster will be able to increase monk affliction output in the new incarnation.

Assuming ka-weights don't change, mo-boosters are only usable at mo2 without any additional modifiers or actions. At mo3, you can put in an extra kick (vanilla kata-kick) and nothing else. No extra affs. Mo-boosters are never used at mo4 or mo5 because that would waste the +2 mo. However, in the new incarnation, it no longer is strategically unsound to use it in mo4. In mo4, you can add any kick you want with a few modifiers, even. This means that the change will allow any monk to kick faster than they ever were able to, at mo4 or mo5. (Though it's a waste of the +1 mo at mo5)

Note that this does not allow the use of any hand action, which actually form the bulk of a monk's affliction output. For comparison, the first afflicting hand action for the Nekotai is angknek, which causes a marjoram affliction and costs 125 ka per slash. 2 angkneks would cost 250ka and give 2 marjoram affs, as well as the possibility of 2 poisons. All higher level Nekotai hand actions give as much or even more afflictions (though they also cost more ka than the mo-booster), while the mo-booster gives no affliction and only the possibility of 1 poison. For a 25% speed increase, this means a monk can kick 4 times (mobooster+kick form) in the space of time that they could have kicked 3 and used their hand actions 6 times (2handactions+kick form). For a 33% speed increase, a monk would be able to kick 3 times in the space of time that they could have kicked 2 and used their hand actions 4 times.

For the new speeds, the Nekotai are the ones with the most amount of kick-modifiers, and so would benefit the most. (A poison chance on a kick, a vessel chance on a kick, not to mention general bleeding that forms a very solid nekotai offense line) But even taking those modifiers into account, the overall affliction output has decreased.

A monk who uses the mo-boosters at mo2 and mo3 is gaining momentum slower and seeing no increase in their affliction output with the change. A monk who uses the mo-boosters at mo4 and mo5 is afflicting less than if they were using normal forms with the change.

tl;dr - However way you cut it, report 450 is a nerf to monk speed in general.

If you are disagreeing with the report simply because it doesn't nerf monks hard enough, then please say so. I'm quite sure there will be many who will agree with you, including monks like myself. Certainly, just a slight, general slow down isn't hardly going to be enough to justify monks at their current incarnation.

However, saying that a report is an attempt at buff hidden beneath a facade of placating wording for a nerf is as good as implying that the envoys involved are liars and cheaters. I don't know if that counts as an insult, but at the very least, it is rude. Perhaps I'm just a naive noob whose opinion doesn't matter in this "forum", but I don't believe frustration justifies the vitirol being slinged around on both sides. Or perhaps you don't really care if you come off as a jerk so long as you get your points across, or maybe you actually feel good when you put down someone's work. In which case I'll agree that you're certainly a top-notch asshole and cede you the argument.

Raised similar concerns on the other monk hate balance thread here: http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=768103

And in even greater detail here: http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=768267 regarding 4mo and 5mo abuses... especially for Nekotai monks.

Sahm goes into detail here: http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=768166 to explain how this proposal would slow down the skill without outright deleting it.

In response to my own concerns about 4mo and 5mo abuse, they added this clause to the Envoy Report 450:



One of the productive things addressed in this particular thread was the problem with the "afterthought" not being articulated clearly enough. Hope this is not the case here, but that is a matter for the Envoys and Furies to address.

It's both, believe me. I acknowledge that it means momentum growth is slower. I don't acknowledge this imaginary point that kicks don't exist and an afflictionless attack has no effect, so speeding up other attacks is some sort of nice compromise. Sahmiam has a case of Ninjakari tunnel vision in this. Sahmiam sees Ninchu + kick at 3mo (and pretending that 25% quicker recovery after a stun at 4mo doesn't exist). I see Shofangi mangling a leg, whoring out Stomp with a 25% speed boost until they can mangle your other leg, and repeating the process.

Of course, a monk might look at that and say, "What's the big deal? That gives you 0.75 seconds to stand and run away. I have all sorts of better tricks." They're too polite to say it out loud, though, because they know that warriors have no equivalent tricks.

If you want better momentum, use Boost. Power is what everyone else uses when they want immediate results.

@Vey: Monks are affliction classes because someone let them be affliction classes. They run around with min damage and prec weapons. They have all the tools they need to be an attrition class. They choose not to be, because they have a very OP affliction train to lean on instead. It doesn't take many comparisons to drive that point home. WTB Rakti'ini for Axelords!

Lies.

Said shofangi would never kill anyone, even if your calculations are right and they can keep you down all the time.

And I would say, that gives you 0.75 seconds to stand and hinder and get your own offense started. I'm not saying that is a valid option for all classes, but monks aren't the unstoppable killing machines you say they are. A simple shieldstun followed up by passives can do wonders to disrupt.

I don't think your point about monks having much of a choice is valid. Even if you forge a max wounding weapons, it won't make that much of a difference (level 3 stat runes on kata weapons have the same effect for wounding, and it's not enough to solidly build on like warriors do).

And I would reply, would you rather every guild have options to lock you down, power-free, on command for 90% of the time, or would you rather eat the nerfstick? Those are your choices. You don't get to invent a third way here.

A monk's notion of balance is still baffling to me. "Lulz, it's not impossible to cure. Moar buffz, plz."

Most amusing part from my perspective? If monk attacks didn't naturally raise momentum when they struck and Boost were the -only- way to increase momentum... monk kills would still be reliable. (granted they would take a fair bit longer to achieve)

They would not, unless you remove momentum loss over time. Momentum loss for certain moves would probably have to be removed, as well.

Uhh, as long as momentum were retained by simply successfully attacking every so often, like it is now, it still wouldn't be a problem. The abilities which cause a momentum loss are easily equivalent to the power spent on 1-2 boosts if compared to the skillsets of other guilds. Only exception to this is the case of skills that are -already- power skills, AND decrease momentum... but then again no other guilds in the Basin have skills anywhere approaching the ability to drop bombs like said skills. The only tinkering that might be necessary would be to reduce the power (and maybe the effects proportionally) of monk power skills that also drain momentum, to allow them to -just barely- regain enough power (by just barely I mean with reliance on discipline or good timing) to pull it off, and then reach enough momentum for their instakill.

EDIT: In case my comment wasn't clear concerning retaining momentum, I mean that say, for instance, a monk failed to strike a blow on a target for a full 8 seconds (can't remember what the timer actually is before momentum loss starts), they'd lose 1mo, but as long as they continued to land blows their momentum would be retained.