How is that "balanced"? Regardless of how long it takes for someone to remort from every Seal, they will eventually reach demigod/ascendant too. What does that give to the people who choose not to? Nothing.

That just perpetuates a grinding mentality. Lusternia wasn't made in Korea. If anything, you would get to remort -once- and you would be associated with that particular Seal. Medallion bearers are already the equivalent to this though.

No, they wouldn't. Remort is an alternative to Demi. And even if they could reach it, so what? They'd have essentially bashed to Demi 16+ times at that point on the same character.

Also, I still find it hilarious that people are like "OMG! If they spend more time than me, they'll be stronger than me!" Um.. that is how it currently is. If you spend more time bashing, you'll reach Demi. If you spend more money you'll have more artis. If you spend more time fighting, your org will make you a Vernal or support you in becoming a True Ascendant.

I mean, if you're going to disagree with a suggestion.. at least use an argument that makes some sense.

Also, I didn't come in here to suggest that it be done in a serious sense--I just said it would be cool. And then people were like "hurf durf i dun want people who spend more time bashing than me to be stronger... even though that is exactly how it is now/Anything from Aardwolf suxx!" so I defended the idea.

I've always liked the idea of 'remorts', personally, and was always a remort junky on a few MUDs. (Un?)fortunately, I don't really see it belonging in Lusternia - rebirth is certainly an existing theme, but I can't, personally, see a system for it being implemented that'd work, be interesting and not imbalancing.

That said, we're always looking for new ideas for systems of conflict or interesting concepts for mechanics much like this - feel free to make an Ideas! thread on it and expand it more fully. The more fleshed out and well-thought out the system, the better!

In a heavy PvP game, why would the elite fighters want to go from 8000 health back to 500? How do you explain that to the people that you can no longer defend because you're made of lesser stuff? I'm sure remort works great in other games, but I see it as an option here only for people that don't fight (or who spend 26 hours a day hunting, maybe).

Even if the suggestions was made in a throw away manner, you still need to be prepared for the critique and discussion of it. So don't get upset over the fact that people are trying to tear apart what they think is a horrible idea. Just be glad Gregori isn't here, really tearing it apart (if he was against it seeing as I'm most certainly not Gregori).

Imo, I don't like the "Prestige" thing, or remorting whatever you weird people are calling it. I don't like having things swept clean even if it means I get perks and whatnot. If I wanted to start at lvl 1 again, I'll go make a new character kthnx.

Except that it isn't a horrible idea. This isn't an "everyone can have their own opinion" thing, because it is provably not a universally terrible idea. And no one has actually attacked a flaw in the system--they've merely all said that remorting is icky and pretty much left it at that. That isn't an actual critique or discussion. And I'm not mad. I just think an actual critique would be a better response than "but what about my hps?"

And Zarquan, that's why it is a choice. The Demi wouldn't have to give up their 8000hp. But that person who doesn't like fighting but prefers to Influence and/or Bash or Aetherhunt? Why shouldn't they have an option too?

Demi is very much a combatants reward. And even after these tweaks, it seems like it will continue to be, because the Ascendance shop isn't for them, right? This would be an option for people who don't want to sit and stagnate just so they can club each other over the head.

I seriously don't understand the arguments of 'But the fighters won't do it!" Who cares what the combatants will do? Why do we have to judge every possible thing in terms of whether or not a combatant will abuse it?

Maybe it's because people who simply enjoy hunting and remorting would've found a game that lets them do just that. Lusternia is about more than PvP, but I'll never understand why people choose to completely ignore that aspect of the game.

And, you may have missed the description of the end-game changes talking about all the fun RP stuff that will be added for those who don't care too much for the PvP stuff.

Actually, I wonder about that. I don't think what you said is wrong, but it also seems like combat success at an organizational level tends to gravitate toward a handful of very powerful fighters. When these fighters are present, your org does well. When these fighters change orgs, it changes the power landscape of Lusternia.

It might be very interesting to have an -option- where this cycle could be broken up at various times in exchange for a greater long-term benefit for the fighter.

And there's bragging rights involved, too. It's hard to criticize someone's combat abilities when they beat your level 90 omnitrans character with their level 30 character.

No, but you don't get access to the majority of the Essence Shop as a Demi. You get that for being a Vernal/True Ascendant. And you can't bash your way to either of those. Unless I missed something.

Mad or not, your attitude at least comes off as "everyone is stupid except for me, especially if they disagree." So look at it from your audience's perspective, which is important in writing. Relatively new poster shows up, tells everyone that they have a great idea that nobody has ever thought of here, and if someone doesn't agree that it's great, they're dense.

Whether or not their objections qualify with your definition of a critique is entirely irrelevant. They object, and instead of trying to alleviate their concerns in the interests of your argument, you essentially call them stupid (and knowing most of them for RL years now, I can tell you they are most definitely not that). That's not exactly going to win you any converts.



To the last question- have you met Krellan? How about Narsrim? There are players of this game who derive a great deal of enjoyment in finding new and creative ways to take overlooked mechanics and make them nightmarish. They can often be terribly competent at this task. We have to judge every possible thing in terms of whether or not a combatant will abuse it because, if it is abuseable, someone will.

As a person who doesn't fight, I'd rather be a Demigod (someday) than to remort. As I understand it, when you remort, you start over, only with some bonuses or skills from your previous existance, right? Well, with Skillflexing, you can have multiple skills already. So, you're just starting over. I mean sure, there might be some people who'd want to start over with the same character in a different guild or something, but those people would probably just guild-hop as they are so they don't have to start over.

You say that the "But my hps" isn't a real critique, but it is. Just because HPs aren't important to you, doesn't mean that they can't be important to someone else. You're being as dismissive as you're complaining about other people being when you say that it isn't a valid concern or critique of the remorting idea.

Personally, like I said, I'd rather be a Demigod, even if most of the cool features are PvP related. Why? Because strutting around like a quasi-divine being (I think, when I get there one day, I'm gonna start refering to myself in the third person a lot ) is way cooler than starting over at level 1. That seems like a punishment, not a reward! "Hey! You worked really, really hard! Here start all over again!" No thanks. I have alts for that.

By the way, there is going to be some cool stuff for Demigod, even neat custom stuff. Eventru said so!

Um.. I called him dense because he ignored what I said. He said that he didn't want to have to give something up, after I had repeatedly said he wouldn't have to. I haven't called anyone stupid for disagreeing with me.





I'm not talking about if they can abuse it. I'm saying that the argument is "A fighter won't use this, so its stupid!' which is essentially saying "Krellan can't abuse this, so it shouldn't be coded."

That is what I mean. Why is the fact that a fighter wouldn't find use in it an argument against something?

Except that they don't have to give them up. I'm not being dismissive. They don't have to give up their precious HPs. No one does. It is an option. I'm not saying HPs can't be important. I'm saying arguing that you don't want to give yours up is not an argument against the option to.

I am boggled by people's inability to understand the difference in this concept.

You have the choice between Psymet and Acrobatics as a Monk. Is it a good argument to say "I don't want to give up Contort" for why Psymet shouldn't even be a skillchoice? Of course not. And it is the same argument being used here when someone says they don't want to give up their HP. They don't have to give up contort--its a choice.

That is -your- opinion. Not everyone here believes that Remorting/Prestiging is a good idea or even an ok one. Just because there are games out there that Remort/Presitge does not mean it works everywhere. Some places it works, others it does not. You need to learn to accept that you're not always going to get a well thought out, coherent argument against your ideas. Lemme call Xenthos to this discussion then you'll get a better reposne than "but what about my hp?" (that is if he's against the idea of course). Chances are you will likely either a. walk away or b. end up looking like a fool after arguing with him cuz that happens to everyone when they argue against Xenthos. Just the law of land.

It really isn't an opinion though. A quantifiably bad idea is going to be quantifiably bad. Not everything is a matter of opinion, I'm afraid.

For instance: "Lord of the Rings is a bad book. I'm entitled to my opinion, so there!"

No. In this situation, said person's opinion is wrong. Lord of the Rings may not be something they like but that does not make it bad. There is a line between not for you and horrible idea. Bad is something quantifiable. Cancer is bad. Smoking is bad. And yet people still smoke and give themselves cancer. Does that make "Smoking is not bad for you" a valid opinion? Absolutely not.

I think you're getting facts and opinions mixed up in that argument...

Okay, okay guys. I think the problem with the current conversation is Doctor is saying, 'It could be an option! You don't need to do it!' and everyone else is saying, 'but we will!' - the problem being players (by their very nature) are obsessed with min/maxing, and if there's some advantage, no matter how slight, they'll feel obligated to pursue it. Then people say, 'Oh, it's taken me so long to get to Demigod, now you want me to do it NINE MORE TIMES?' etc etc. As I said, if you feel like it's a good idea (and you do, it seems!), you're very welcome to take it to a new threads in Ideas! My advice would be to flesh it out, give some examples insofar as what sort of benefits you're talking about, how attractive it will be, etc.

To bring the conversation back to the main topic, I don't really feel the idea of a remort system would add anything that couldn't be integrated into the new demigod powers system - but I could certainly be wrong.

I completely understand that it is optional, as you've stated too many times already.

I'm still just wondering who, other than yourself, would ever want to start over with their current character. I seriously doubt it'll will amount to more than a few individuals, not enough to make coding such a system a worthwhile effort, but this is just my opinion and I don't know the minds of every demigod and cannot speak for us all.

This.

There's a reason I said you could remort at 80-90 or so. As it would be an alternate route than Demi-god, you wouldn't be bashing to Demi every time. Lots of people never make it past 80ish, because the per-level climb starts to be obscene, so they just stop bashing all together except for gold.

Now, if you gave those people the option to start over, they might just take it. "LEVEL UP!!" is a surprisingly motivating thing, as has been talked about in various other threads.

Also, the fact that games like Aardwolf, which has remorting as a major feature, can have peak times of 800+ people shows that obviously at least a few individuals in the mudding world would be willing to use it. If the major basis for Aardwolf was such a terrible, useless idea.. I sort of doubt that it'd be as popular as it is.

However, as Eventru asked, I'll drop the conversation in this thread.