I'm surprised this thread has stayed open so long. Funny how when the opposite viewpoint is the starter of the thread, it gets shut down immediately, but when it's this side of the story, it plays out forever. But I'm glad it did because no matter who started the thread, the topic merits discussion as much as the Serenwilde thread did. And I apologize for the length of this post but I hope at least one person will take the time to read it and consider it with an open mind.
It's times like these that I really miss the fact that these forums do not have a 'like' button.
They really should. It would save a lot of "this" and "QTF" posts, too.
Ok, Clearly both sides (aka Admins and Players alike) need to step back from the thread. Lock it up, whatever but dear gods everyone just take a damn step back from this thread. Go grab a shower, pet your rock, drink some wine. Give things a good, long thought before coming back and lets try and talk like we're all civilized human beings capable of decent conversation without degrading into finger pointing, he said she said.
First, the bolded part there just sounds wrong. Second, good advice, that's what I did. When I finally got around to reading the rest of the thread tonight (took forever; didn't anyone else sleep?!), I noticed a few things that might need pointing out.
Sahmiam mentioned rights-based wording in the laws. This would be an excellent idea, and a way to explain the structure of the city while seeming congruent to its RP. For example, "Citizens have the right to contest their leaders including respectful and reasonable contention posts," or, "City leaders have the right to enemy a guest who has caused trouble and refused to leave when asked." Really enhances the sense of freedom for all citizens, from peasant up to grand duke. You could make it a Rights and Responsibilities thing too. Like you have the responsibility to alert the city if you hear your guild-specific NPCs being attacked via loyalsays, for example.
When I've had questions as to whether a decision might be against game rules, I just issue myself and explain the situation and ask "can I do this?" The one time I didn't do that, I apparently made the wrong choice according to Estarra, so I had to undo it. And that's fine, probably my fault for not double-checking in the first place. I still know I did nothing intentionally wrong, but if it's
perceived that way (in my case due to unfortunate timing), that's what matters, and sometimes you just have to pick your battles. If you have to ask on a case-by-case basis, do so. It's not hard. And I could be wrong but I think the admins would rather answer a quick yes/no now and then (unless you have to ask every day in which case I don't know what to tell you), than deal with explosive messes like this. An ounce of prevention...
No, I'm not going to "latch onto" Estarra's posts. I have no reason to. The one thing I will say about them is that this is a prime example of what happens with this group of people (it's not only Kalin, he's just perceived as the ringleader and therefore his name is used most). When they get called out on something they've done wrong, whether by a citizen, guild member, player on the forums, or even admin, they kick up a huge fuss and cry bloody murder, claiming total innocence and twisting words and accusing the other person of the very same things they've done. I'm sorry but if this topic continues to come up so often and so many times, there is
some seed of truth to it, however large or small. It baffles me that so few otherwise intelligent people have considered this.
An example of twisting words is this whole idea that the opposition is using freedom as an excuse to do atrocious things. They're not. When someone writes a normal contention post ("Our current leader has done a b and c things right, and we thank him/her for that, but he/she has done x y and z things not-so-right, which is why I think we need a change. This is my experience with leadership, this is why I would do if you elect me.") and you fly off the handle about it, and they say "what's wrong with what I did? I have the right to do that, don't I?" they're not using freedom as a flimsy excuse for something horrible; they're just using common sense. I don't know why this "snugglers" thing keeps coming up, because I haven't seen much excessive affection (and Aubrey is from Seren, I know excessive affection when I see it), or at least haven't heard of it being a problem. Maybe I just missed it, but I haven't heard Kalin & Co. ever directly say that's the problem either. It seems like people have just assumed that sort of thing is the issue, and Kalin etc have been happy to let them think that, while conveniently failing to mention what's actually happening.
When I mention this, they tell me to shut up because I don't know anything about it. They say I'm just making things up to be sensationalist (why would I care about doing that? I've never met Gregori IC, I don't know most of these people outside of these situations, I have no score to settle from the past or anything). In fact I've bit my tongue on this whole thing until this thread. And it's been hard. Why? Because I know a lot more about it than they think I do. And why don't they know this? Because I have specifically avoided getting involved in-game. I'm not sure what on Earth would lead someone to think I metagame, but if I did metagame, you would have heard of my alt, you would have heard from me outside the game. But you haven't because I don't do that stuff. That doesn't mean I don't know about things though. That doesn't mean I don't see the more public stuff first-hand and see logs from others of the behind-closed-doors stuff. I've just showed a hell of a lot of restraint in discussing it publicly or acting on it in-game.
And knowing these things from seeing it first-hand is what makes it so frustrating, it's what led me to be so ticked off last night, because those of you who
haven't seen it for yourselves buy into everything these guys say, without considering how unrealistic it sounds. When one person is brave enough to speak up and say "this is untrue/wrong," they get the verbal beatdown from multiple people, which makes others who agree with that isolated person be afraid to speak up in support (and yes, there are many others who do agree), which then gives further support for the claim that it's just a "vocal minority."
The excuse that "Kalin continues to win elections so everything must be peachy" is ludicrous.
They're joke elections. Literally, one of Kalin's friends will make a contention post saying, "Teehee, Kalin's corrupt, oh noes! ... Don't actually vote for me, this is a joke, duh." And then Kalin wins. That doesn't count, folks. I'm hoping most people just sincerely
didn't know that the elections are like this...
Also to clarify, I know there's a lot more to this than just the recent Illuminati thing. It's just that these now-shrubbed alts you mentioned posted a while back, and I didn't expect you'd still be this upset about
those things. I mean really what I don't get is why certain leaders there feel the need to go on such a tyrade against opposition, if you think the opposition is that weak to begin with. If you were really secure, you wouldn't have to do that, would you? From what I've seen, the things people do to earn your ire have been exceedingly mild, and your reactions seem highly exaggerated in proportion. (I'm sure someone will step in here to point out that they think I do the same thing. Well that's nice, you're welcome to think that, that's not the topic of discussion here.) Since you were only recently spoken to by the admins about these things, I assumed the more recent events were the focus. Apparently that was a poor assumption and I apologize for making it.
The point still stands though, whether it's the Illuminati election or any number of other things in Gaudi (Illuminati
is still part of Gaudi, there's an overlap between city leaders and guild leaders, so you can only separate them to an extent, and this problem transcends those categories). If other cities and the communes aren't having these problems, why do you think you are? My advice will probably go ignored like the other decent suggestions here, but that just proves you're here to whine and get sympathy and make the admins look bad, rather than sincerely be open to trying new things. Regardless:
Stop giving so much negative attention to, well, everything. If an obvious alt makes a painful-to-read post, ignore it IC and report alt abuse. You did the latter - or someone did, because they got shrubbed - but not the former, which just exacerbates the problem. If someone contests you and you think they're telling false information in their contention post, engage them like a civil adult, say "actually you're wrong, this is why," instead of insulting and threatening them. It seems like you're doing decent jobs in other areas, as far as getting work done and all that, but this other behavior is the main problem and it's overshadowing anything good you might do. So why is it so hard to just chill out? I mean, they're contesting or speaking against you because of specific behavior, so you respond by doing that very behavior, and then wonder why it doesn't work? Also mocking the whole thing (calling Kalin corrupt in passing conversation as a 'joke')
really does not help. Projecting an image of maturity and calmness and security would really get you far.
And calling people trolls for disagreeing with you OOC really doesn't help either. Just sayin'.
So there's a real answer, take it or leave it, mock and insult me more if you'd like, but I've said my thought-out genuine response, and I won't bite bait.
