So, recently there have been some developments where administration involvement has had to take place and while it could be possible miscommunication was involved, the basic premise of some things said was:

People in Gaudiguch are free to do as they want because the city is supposed to be anarchist.

Leadership is not free to hinder this, because people in Gaudiguch are free to do what they want.

So, now we have a situation where every leader is afraid to do anything about the rampant stupidity going on CT, at the Nexus, on various GT channels, because if we do so, then X person will run crying to the administration about us being heavy handed in the city of FREEDOM.


So... what are we to do, besides "come2Xorg"?


Edit:: Keep this discussion civil.. this isn't a slam against the admin, or the snuggly wugglies. it is a serious discussion on where are we allowed to act as the leadership.

Hmmm.

Alternatively: Join Hallifax!

Besides the other issue at hand that caused trouble recently, I've been particularly confused on the extent to which I as a pseudo-leader and high ranking citizen can go to bring order to any group or gathering in a 'city of Freedom'. Freedom does not imply lawlessness, it implies liberty and the freedom of choice. It does not imply anarchy. No organization in any IRE game can thrive as an anarchy or a pseudo-anarchy. I'm also wondering if the entire 'Freedom' schtick means I have an out-of-the-box, protected reason to literally do as I please, messing with city politics, etc?

After all, if citizens are 'free' to annoy me, why am I not 'free' to punish them for doing so?

More to the point, why can't we enforce some authority? If we don't, we're nothing but people with our names on a help file. Why bother electing leaders in Gaudiguch or it's guilds?

join Celest, help Malicia root out the snugglies.

Isn't the theoretical law, "You can do whatever you want except stop someone else from doing what they want"?

(Not that I have any interest in this sort of org-type myself, but that's the impression I've gotten from the forums at least, with Gaudiguch's "one law")

Edit: Also, leaders can be role-models, organizers, inspirers. They can show others "the way" in a positive manner. They can do all kinds of things except (apparently) pass more laws. Which is, admittedly, a very important part of an organization here...

Yeah, but why must that law protect people basically being annoying little s?

Who knows? I didn't write it!

I'm talking the theoretical, not the desired. Like I said, I couldn't handle that style myself. I'm frankly astonished that Gregori did up until now; it's not his usual style. To pretty much everyone else I imagine it's frustrating, but maybe the intent is to provide a place for those people to go and have a place to live.

'cause it's the city of the Free.

I've thought about it, lately - leaders are due a fair amount of respect because, in taking up their position, they restrict their own Freedoms in exchange for the power their office grants them. By this, they would ideally inspire others to follow their example (Nobody says you -have- to defend squat unless you're Protector/Security/Champion!), but when you're leading a bunch of lackwits about ... you're at a bit of an impasse.

Well, I know I'm not the only one who feels like if we changed the law to cover that complaint, or even added more laws.. we'd get invaded by a sudden interrogation by the Administration for 'violating our RP'.

The problem with an org structure like that is it is doomed to failure, and we all know what happens to orgs that don't go out and do things and show they are capable of succeeding. *flashbacks to early Glomdoring* Quite frankly the last thing we want is Glomdoring 2.0, but basically being told "you are not allowed to restrict their freedom to ruin your city" makes it a case of frustration for everyone who has any decency and possibility of making Gaudiguch more than the joke of IRE.

Perhaps you could fill me in on what people are doing that is presenting a problem? If it is just being stupid/annoying, either ignore them or make snide comments towards them. I'm assuming there is more to it than this, otherwise "Come2Halli" is about the only thing I can suggest.

I'm pretty much agreeing with you, I think; theoretically, I believe you are spot-on here.

Which means you have 3 options:
1) Resign as leaders, just enjoy the skills and your friends there.
2) As leaders, work for "positive reinforcement" (which I imagine is going to be darned frustrating with other people drowning you out, but without passing laws that's all you've got)
3) Quit Gaudiguch.

I like that immediately after Gregori posted 'hey no come2xorg' posts, 2 immediately follow that say the same thing

The reasons above are exactly why I think RPing America is not fun in a fantasy world, the moment you try to institute laws to help your org out, certain citizens will rise up and say 'NU UH I DO WHAT I WANT'

Lets think up a couple of examples.

Situation 1:

Snuggler is being super annoying at the nexus, gallivanting like a true fool.

Meaner walks up to Snuggler and tells them to stop or else.

Is Snuggler annoying? Yes. But they're exercising their freedom to do what they want. You can't exercise authority to tell them to stop, because that would be infringing on their 'basic rights' or whatever. What you can do is embarrass them and make them feel like an idiot with rude commentary(yes I am quite skilled in this field so I would know). Contributing gasoline to a fire...? Always.

Situation 2:

Snuggler decides to leak confidential information to an opposing org.

Meaner, seeing that this is in direct detriment to the city of Gaudiguch can punish them.

Is Snuggler not helping the city and just being a general nuisance now? Most definitely. Kick their butt. If they argue with you and say they were just using their free rights or whatever, tell them they're causing more trouble than they are helping. At that point they're just testing their limits or something.

Situation 3:

Snuggler reluctantly writes a public apology to the city.

Meaner burns Snuggler at the stake before the entire city as retribution for their actions.

Is Snuggler being treated a bit too badly? Kind of. You don't need to murder or burn others alive to get your point across. You're discouraging that person from wanting to participate and help in the future.

Just so everyone knows, what they're actually complaining about is not being able to punish their non-friends for contesting their leadership positions, since that is indeed a violation of the game rules. Simple as that.

No one has done anything atrocious (unless you consider writing a very normal contention post atrocious, which they obviously do). Nor are these 'guilty' parties crying anarchy as an excuse.

And none of this "you don't know the whole story so stfu" nonsense because I know a lot more than you think. And frankly I'm sick of this propaganda getting everyone in the game to think you're some kind of angels having to put up with horrible things.

PS This has nothing to do with snuggling or obnoxious behavior. This has to do with contesting for leadership positions and writing accompanying contention posts, which is a perfectly reasonable right that every player does have.

Making snide comments brings out even more. "You can't be mean to them,! We are free! We are just exercising that right!" and that's just copy paste response, it goes up from there to more insulting statements and the moment we say "ok, line crossed" they go running to the administration that their freedom was stomped on.

There is only so much "ignore them" that you can do and in a social game "ignore them" is far less an option than you think, especially when it comes to the leadership. More so when the leadership gets complaints about it and we are left saying "sorry... we cant do anything.. they are free to annoy you all they want"

I am pretty sure that nobody thinks Gregori is an angel.

Keepin' it civil...

So do you get issued for randomly maiming people who offend you? If so, that's pretty lame, considering that's pretty much what would happen in a real anarchy.

If Gaudiguch was ever forced to be a zoo where the citizens are animals and the keepers are the poor leaders in charge, along with the guild leaders.. or more aptly, a nursery or daycare full of low IQ children, and the leaders were the caretakers.. I'd probably opt for option 3. I'm not interested in struggling to make a political power work while a bunch of CR1 people dance around doing whatever they please, which may or may not make my city look like a joke. Right now I'm doing alright handling business as Illuminati Champ, give or take a few people being whiny, but that's to be expected in a city like this.

Positive reinforcement is very difficult when the city has ground to something of a halt, where the same people doing things are the people OBLIGATED to do things. Tlarras and I make our daily raid of Air, or nearly daily, a couple people go aetherhunting, we empower the guards, the same core group rushes to revolts and fails.. otherwise, the rest of the city is incredibly passive/lethargic/sloth-like. I feel like we're going to run out of ways to reward people when the same core group of do-gooders are all CR6. :/