I tried to have a personal conversation with estarra about a year ago over a concern I had and it basically came off as an "I don't care" attitude. I can sympathize with the "bad taste" some of you speak about.
In all fairness, I doubt anyone starts on page one and reads an 28 page thread. But I bet a lot of the admin read the pages of them that pop up between their visits to the forums. Or at least one prolly does and summarizes for the rest. When I'm reading those threads, I see Eventru reading them often as well as Shikari and a whole slew of invisible people who are prolly some of them admins.
One of those would be me.
I can also say that I do, in fact, start on page one and go all the way through.
While I really, really appreciate your opinions and feedback, and you must know that I am responsive to it, I am still the creator, producer and designer of Lusternia. I will continue to make decisions that I think is best for the game and sometimes those decisions won't always be popular. If this means I am painted with the "my way or the highway" brush, so be it. Lusternia is not a democracy and I don't believe we don't need more "player committees". (I've tried player committees before for multiple things, and the results haven't really been very favorable or productive.) In any event, I think the forums work fine for expressing opinions and as a place where we can have a conversation (as we are now!).
Believe it or not, I wasn't hired for Lusternia for my public relations or customer service skills. Surely, I've made missteps and regret some words I've said and actions I've taken after being goaded into anger. However, I think I've mellowed and improved over the years--for those who have been with me since the beginning, I hope you agree with that! For better or worse, I'm who you're stuck with and you can expect that I will probably continue to make decisions and roll things out per my usual infuriating, tempestuous and (hopefully) delightful manner. And, yes, I fully expect reactions to range from joy and wonder to what-the-frack-was-she-smoking. But I do promise that I will continue to put all my creativity, inspiration and heart into Lusternia and work as hard as I can to make Lusternia an excellent, wondrous and exciting game. I promise to listen to your opinions and comments, and while I may not always agree, at least know that I do care what you think and am interested to hear what you say.
Such is an unavoidable product of being a manager- I'm sure you're acutely aware, but by knowing exactly how that feels from both sides of the glass, I empathize with you on the ramifications and stress you're caused by this on a day to day and week to week basis, which only increases with how much you care about the job.
Now, let's see if we can blow you up in an aethership again
I tried to have a personal conversation with estarra about a year ago over a concern I had and it basically came off as an "I don't care" attitude. I can sympathize with the "bad taste" some of you speak about.
To be fair, I've mostly found these situations to be with things where The Vision™ is 'set in stone' and there isn't much interest in reviewing / rethinking it (things like domoth power income, affinity, and the like). When there's a sharp divide between between what Estarra sees as being 'right' and what the players would like to see. Essentially, if it's something Estarra is greatly pleased by or thinks is the Right Thing, she's not inclined to look at it from the POV of the players because it's 'cool' so we should like it too (at least, that's the impression I get).
This is, on the whole, rare and it is much rarer now than it used to be. I think partially because some of the players tend to get pretty vocal when we're feeling trod-upon.
However, I don't know what your situation in particular is.
I also want to point out that I suggested an advisory board, not a committee. Committees usually make decisions and/or investigate the best options and then recommend them. The purpose of the board would be the admin to run their ideas (especially major ones) in reasonable detail by the board and then hear out the feedback. At no time would the admin be required to follow the board, but at least the admin could hear, succinctly, opinions about future changes. Rather than close to 90 pages on an important change, you might get 10 to 20, but you still wouldn't have to sift through the usual BS a thread can produce.
I still don't think this would work. It may not happen the first time, or the second time, but eventually, after the Admin don't do what the advisory board suggests, those players will feel the same way you do-- that they aren't being listened to, so why bother?
This is what we have with Envoys. Envoys are appointed by the Admin (ICly), and are in charge of suggesting new ideas and changes. The system barely works now because it is abused to the ground. A player advisory committee would, given enough time, turn into the same thing.
Now, let's see if we can blow you up in an aethership again
That is a story that needs to be told. We have a painting off Her on Spirit as a talisman against such things. If it turns out it actually doesn't work...
To be fair, I've mostly found these situations to be with things where The Vision™ is 'set in stone' and there isn't much interest in reviewing / rethinking it (things like domoth power income, affinity, and the like). When there's a sharp divide between between what Estarra sees as being 'right' and what the players would like to see. Essentially, if it's something Estarra is greatly pleased by or thinks is the Right Thing, she's not inclined to look at it from the POV of the players because it's 'cool' so we should like it too (at least, that's the impression I get).
This is, on the whole, rare and it is much rarer now than it used to be. I think partially because some of the players tend to get pretty vocal when we're feeling trod-upon.
However, I don't know what your situation in particular is.
I don't remember my situation either, it was several topics and about a year ago so I've forgotten, I just remember for me speaking with the rep for the game it wasn't a very good leave as a paying customer trying to discuss a few things on a personal level.
I still don't think this would work. It may not happen the first time, or the second time, but eventually, after the Admin don't do what the advisory board suggests, those players will feel the same way you do-- that they aren't being listened to, so why bother?
This is what we have with Envoys. Envoys are appointed by the Admin (ICly), and are in charge of suggesting new ideas and changes. The system barely works now because it is abused to the ground. A player advisory committee would, given enough time, turn into the same thing.
Whether or not I feel that the admin listen to me is irrelevant. This thread has little to do with me except that I brought attention to the problem using myself as an example. I think there are communication problems between the administration and the players; that's why I started this thread. Please come up with solutions yourself.
The advisory board is just that. It advises. It suggests. It doesn't demand and it shouldn't. It would be the responsibility of both parties to ensure that it doesn't happen.
The Envoy system is a separate issue as it has some fundamental design flaws before you even introduce the possibility to abuse. Additionally, the envoy answers to the guild, and as such, the guild can petition the patron to replace the envoy.
Estarra Blow Up Story: We were aetherbashing when she approached me in game to address me personally. While she and I were talking, the ship blew up.
Razenth2010-08-13 17:12:14
And... did she show up on deathsight?
Noola2010-08-13 17:17:39
OMG, if she did, I will forever feel incomplete for having missed it!
Vathael2010-08-13 17:23:51
From what I recall, divine don't show up on deathsight. I remember watching a divine fight in a FFA one time, died for all I know and left the arena without a message.
I still don't think this would work. It may not happen the first time, or the second time, but eventually, after the Admin don't do what the advisory board suggests, those players will feel the same way you do-- that they aren't being listened to, so why bother?
This is what we have with Envoys. Envoys are appointed by the Admin (ICly), and are in charge of suggesting new ideas and changes. The system barely works now because it is abused to the ground. A player advisory committee would, given enough time, turn into the same thing.
speaking of envoys, though... might it be a good idea to appoint a demigod envoy, who performs the normal envoy functions, but for demigod powers?
Depending on the thread, if I have the time(which I usually do), and how many pages, I actually do this.
:fistbump:
+1
Aubrey2010-08-13 23:51:20
I read all pages of a thread if I'm interested in it.
Gotta say, I can identify with the sentiment of the OP. Sounds like most of these changes in perception of customer service have happened in the last few months to half a year. I only started playing actively about 7-8 months ago so I didn't really get a chance to see the 'before' picture to compare accurately. However I was extremely displeased with the way a few things were handled recently. The two main things were:
a) the keg rune artifact being drastically changed and when people asked for a refund/exchange, they were basically given a copy-and-paste excerpt from the TOS where it says "we reserve the right to do whatever we want," which I felt was extremely poor customer service (or as Sylphas put it, "PR"). I've worked in customer service and I know the other side of the table, I know sometimes you have to say no to something... but the least you can do is be polite and sympathetic and professional about it. For example, little things like a greeting and signature in email responses, or a "we sincerely apologize for the inconvenience, but..." helps a lot. Or in Sahmiam's case, prompt response. Those things matter to paying customers just as much as the actual answer does, most of the time. (To be fair, they did end up changing their minds and giving refunds in that situation, which was greatly appreciated.)
b) Eventru immediately closing any thread that discussed a topic he didn't like, or from the point of view he didn't like - whether the keg rune change or problems in Gaudiguch. But when it's from the other side, it goes on for several pages and turns into a nasty flame war - in which the admins actually join (which is something that should just never happen). Don't get me wrong, I would hate to see the forums turn into what Achaea's forums are. But it's unhealthy for the game if they are the other extreme too, especially if it's inconsistent (the Gaudi topic for example).
That's why I don't think the forums are a sufficient or effective method of communication between players and admins. Sometimes people are afraid to post on the forums because they don't want to deal with the flaming and trolling. And at least half of the complaints that are raised on the forums aren't even sincere attempts at open communication; they exist to bring attention to oneself, fan flames, or manipulate the admins (someone mentioned "group think" somewhere in this thread, I think?). Unfortunately then when someone does have a sincere concern to discuss, they're dismissed with the assumption that they are just trying to do what the trolls do.
Personally when I had concerns, I sent a PM to an admin (unfortunately it was Eventru, since he was the only one I ever saw on the forums) and then an email to support, who responded promptly, thoroughly, and professionally. I have not been unhappy* with customer service I've received via support email. And when there was a conflict between me and another player, Estarra just met with us both in person in-game, had a down-to-earth discussion, and settled the matter. I was really surprised at how hands-on he was, considering everything else on his plate. I wouldn't imagine you would ever get that kind of personal attention in WoW or any other decent-sized MUD.
Lusternia is growing, and fast. Even in the short time I've been here, I've seen a sudden increase in new players. There will inevitably come a point when it will be hard or impossible for Estarra to step in and handle so many things personally. Not because he doesn't want to, but because a person can only handle so much. I just hope when that time comes, however it's managed, Lusternia will retain that feeling of "a labor of love," as someone put it, a community, that human touch that makes this game so different from everything else out there.
* for personal concerns of my own that affected me directly, that is. I was very unhappy when they said "we won't even discuss" the keg rune thing, but I didn't have a keg rune. Not a good response, but it has been the exception, not the rule.
Noola2010-08-14 00:09:39
Am I the only person who keeps up with threads that I've already started reading no matter how long they get, but if I've been away for a few days and suddenly there's a 20 page thread, I don't bother with it?
Everiine2010-08-14 00:18:49
See, I see it in somewhat of an opposite light. I believe that players overreact to anything that they don't like. We have really great Admin around here-- our voices are heard more often than we admit, and the admin do a pretty good job of connecting with us. The downside is that when they do have to do things that the players won't like, the players react under the false premise that the players have some control over the game and should have an equal voice in decisions. We don't. We shouldn't.
The keg rune is a great example of this. From the players' perspective, they were gypped out of a powerful artifact with no warning. From the Admin perspective, the players had been abusing a major, major bug without telling anyone. Then the players have the nerve to publicly post over and over again how they will work hard to find ways to circumvent (read: cheat) the system. If I was an admin, I would have banned people for that. Overreactions from everyone.
Could the administration do a better of job of status updates, emails about ongoing requests, things like that? Sure, probably. Would be nice. But I don't think it's nearly the major issue people are making it out to be, considering that a number of people have admitted that, over the past few years, the Admin have greatly improved in the customer service department.
Unknown2010-08-14 00:28:07
Many recent problems would have been solved had the admin at least made a thread on the forums titled 'This is what we're gonna do' before major changes occur then asked for feedback.
That way, no one gets blindsided, whatever potential problems (not all of them, of course) can be addressed, and everyone ends up a bit less stressed.
See, I see it in somewhat of an opposite light. I believe that players overreact to anything that they don't like. We have really great Admin around here-- our voices are heard more often than we admit, and the admin do a pretty good job of connecting with us. The downside is that when they do have to do things that the players won't like, the players react under the false premise that the players have some control over the game and should have an equal voice in decisions. We don't. We shouldn't.
The keg rune is a great example of this. From the players' perspective, they were gypped out of a powerful artifact with no warning. From the Admin perspective, the players had been abusing a major, major bug without telling anyone. Then the players have the nerve to publicly post over and over again how they will work hard to find ways to circumvent (read: cheat) the system. If I was an admin, I would have banned people for that. Overreactions from everyone.
Could the administration do a better of job of status updates, emails about ongoing requests, things like that? Sure, probably. Would be nice. But I don't think it's nearly the major issue people are making it out to be, considering that a number of people have admitted that, over the past few years, the Admin have greatly improved in the customer service department.
This website uses cookies so that we can provide you with the best user experience possible. Cookie information is stored in your browser and performs functions such as recognising you when you return to our website and helping our team to understand which sections of the website you find most interesting and useful.
Strictly Necessary Cookies
Strictly Necessary Cookie should be enabled at all times so that we can save your preferences for cookie settings.
If you disable this cookie, we will not be able to save your preferences. This means that every time you visit this website you will need to enable or disable cookies again.
