Definitely.

Cultural Affairs, Steward and CL would all be great options. Don't think the GMs need it, three people would definitely be a nice change and give the option in the case Divine are gone/unavailable/their order members don't have available members.

My biggest problem is coping with key family members who go inactive. Both of my house's founders are inactive, and we have lost out on gaining a few people via bloodbonding who would have liked to join, would have been good fits. It would be nice if heads of house could initiate a bloodbond, and require a family vote, even if coupled with an extended waiting period to confirm. I know this is a long shot.

Inactive spouses are mentioned a lot, and it really would be nice to allow 1 parent to initiate an adoption, and again, this could be paired with a house vote, or a head of house confirmation.

I know that there has never been much support from the admin for stuff like this, and they would prefer that people be forced to start over and build up within the existing framework, but, please understand that from players' POV, we would often rather not break ties with people that were once close friends, even if they go inactive... we never know if they will return (we hope they will), and it's usually completely out of line with role-play to divorce when the matter of their return is ambiguous (and sometimes even when it isn't).

This is a great idea. To take it a step further, it could even be done through mobs/questing. I think every org has some kind of temple/cathedral/department that could perform some kind of simplistic officiating. Keep the ability with order heads as well, but do allow a lusternian equivalent of a justice of the peace. I always thought this would fit extremely well into the nai'Dorin bloodrite quest that already exists in Glom. Perhaps with a simple key word, checking for the condition of marriagability with the two people participating, this could be a coded wedding ceremony, or function as normal for any other couples. Not saying every org needs a quest so elaborate, but it would be fun to think about. Quickie elopements also available at the Hall of Records, or perhaps Trader Bob, for a fee!

I'm with you. What's more is, I am not sure if I know a single person other than Estarra who actually likes the whole business where marrying out loses being in one family, or how it makes it so the only successful families are the rapacious ones who put their numbers ahead of the RP of their members. Estarra, I think, believes that a lot of people like this. I'm sure the thread will turn a few up, and even after we subtract those who like it only because they always are on the winning side of it, there's probably one or two left. But nearly everyone I've ever interacted with just feels like the family battle is a burden we have to bear, not a feature. It's a shame it's not open for reconsideration. That's why I think that discussions like this thread amount to discussing what color to repaint the burning wreckage of the train, while allowing it to continue to burn. (Worst part is, we could still have the core of the competition just by letting people count in two families, birth and marriage, and then doubling all the house size requirements, and eliminate all the anti-RP, make-people-miserable stuff.)

I've never been upset by not counting in two families, and I'm not sure why other people are. You were born into a family. You met someone you wanted to marry. You decide which House you're going to be associated with: your birth one, or one you marry into. Maybe one has a nicer manse or is already a Great House so you go over. Maybe the spouse's House already has enough people and so the spouse joins yours. Marrying out doesn't completely disenfranchise you, you can still talk to family and still chat on the family clan. If the numbers are that big of a concern have some RP about.

With Shevat aiming for Banner House right now, we aren't allowing people to marry out. I assume when we got to a number we feel comfortable with, we'll take the rule out, but until then that's how we are maintaining our numbers (or else people actually enjoy being part of Shevat and want to stay for their own reasons). I think allowing people to count for both families would take away something cool about the RP of the family system. Then again, I wouldn't really cry if it was changed, either.

Bannerhouse to who? Or do you mean Lesser House?

For people saying that restricting who your family members can marry is treading all over their RP, I find it laughable. That's how great houses worked. Marriages for love being the norm is a very new thing, historically. Your family has RP, and each person has RP, and if you let the individuals "win" too much, your house falls apart. I'd love a furrikin only family, but then you get people who want to marry people they like that aren't furrikin, or have children who aren't, or they all marry out. And then yeah, your family is toast and you start over. Because you didn't enforce the family RP, it imploded. That's to be expected, really.

The truth is that people don't want an RP system like that. They don't want anything that strict. They want to be able to marry and adopt whoever they want and socialize on the family channel and have everyone be happy doing whatever they want. There's no reason to code that system, since we have clans. We could even scrap the actual family tree tracking, and make people responsible for their own genealogy. I have a feeling people would hate that too, though.

Do people just want a system to track family trees and hand out surnames without having to use titles? We have that. Except you still can't be in two families at once, which people seem to want without ever explaining how it would actually work or what kind of restrictions would need to be placed on it so that their descendants don't count as part of every family in the basin and ruin the point of the system in the first place.

My opinion? Fix the bugs and leave it alone, massively overhaul the whole thing, or scrap the system and just use clans. I just can't see where any middle ground exists between those.

This is one of those instances of bringing in a real world comparison that doesn't really fit in the virtual world being discussed. There are too many instances in the histories and in quests that run against this to be convincing or compelling.

And in discussing a pure furrikin family, you omitted what is probably the single greatest obstacle: reincarnation.

The people that designed the House system also designed the lore that includes historical Houses. So if someone went awry along the way, it wasn't me and my analogy.

Given a choice between what we have now and not having it at all, I'd kind of prefer not having it at all, personally. The position I'm in is pretty rough simply because there are no good options and the system is intentionally designed to be so inflexible that there never will be any good options.

That said, if there was another option beside your two extremes to leave the system in the game but make it a bit more forgiving and open, I'd love that far more than removing it. It is, again, another system where there is a lot of potential but it's just kind of locked down for no real reason. Especially because it is not at all unheard of for families to actually merge / be subsumed in the real world, or for people to be part of more than one family.

I mean, the point of political marriages wasn't to 'give away your children and lose them and all advantage from them,' which is essentially what happens (mechanically enforced) in Lusternia when someone marries out.

As far as I'm aware, there's no single instance of a proper House family in any sort of love-vs-political/social-expectations in Lusternia's lore.

Commoners, yes. Families, not so much!

(Excluding two celestian denizens, one of whom left the other at the altar of a politically arranged marriage, and has since caught much flak over it!)

Political marriages most certainly existed, historically.

And, again, the focus should be on the actual family system, not the house system. We're only trying to see what is wrong, and may need addressing, in the former right now.

Edit: And if someone feels everything has been said on the given topic, please feel free to form a list of things you think would improve the system, that haven't been no-go'd already.

I agree, especially with the last point. I married into Kalas to get the benefits, but one of the conditions for Kalas to get the benefits of having me was that I got to keep my own name as well as my direct line.

Perhaps, given the furor, it might be wise to schedule an overhaul of the House system (or at least a review thereof) at some point in the future, so that people won't feel OMG I'VE GOT TO BRING UP ALL OF MY ISSUES NAO NAO NAO NAO!!!!!

Jaryn Treeheart?

A respected family, but he's certainly not part of a Great House per say (Given he's the only known descendent..)

Likewise, how do the caoimhe elfen treat his relationship with Rhianna? Doesn't he attack one of them or another while trying to escape...? Certainly, a great stain on his family's honour! Seems like a good example of when marrying for love was a bad thing..

I think it was missed in the last subject change, since no admin addressed it, so I will redirect you to here.

If you intend to actually participate in the honour system in it's present state, you won't. Well you might, but when you start having children marrying out then becoming leaders and not generating honour for your family you'll stop.



Why?

Yes, we want both families to count (unless one is rejected)

However, upon marriage anything to do with honour would be reduced for the birth family you aren't making the full contribution but your origins are still recognised.


This is really one of those times where it is unfortunate that the admin can't be forced to play the game they are creating so that they can see just how annoying it is.

I'm ok if some honour trickles back to the birth family, that's more than fine, it gives an incentive for political marriages. I'm NOT fine with you actually counting as a member of the house you married out of. But I think we might just be arguing a semantic thing now.

My worry is that if you count as both houses, what about your children? Both houses? That makes sense, that's ok. What about your grandchildren? Four houses? Do you make them pick at some point? I really need to see how people want this implemented, some kind of algorithm. Because just saying "Should count for both" is really too vague to code.

Alright, well, thanks for your opinions/ideas/concerns. Since apparently the only topics left to post on are the honour system, and we're right now just looking for comments regarding the underlying family system, I'm going to go ahead and close the thread.

Thanks for your input!