I've always been uncomfortable with the Great House system, because it ends up being too much a numbers game. I don't personally feel sold on the idea that a family becomes 'great' (which implies important/respectable/powerful) when it has become sprawlingly oversized and every third person in an org has the same name. On the contrary, the bigger the family gets, the more common and increasingly 'ordinary' the name becomes - like Smith or Jones. Consequently, while I know some members of my family are eager to aim for Lesser House and on up, I'm not in a hurry to see the name become the Smith of Hallifax. The downside to this is that, if we follow the approach of ignoring the numbers game, we'll probably never get to participate in any part of the 'house' system.

I'm not personally in favour of seeing the honour system scrapped. It's unusual and it has huge potential. However, I also like Gregori's suggestion of perks for reaching certain landmarks. I think, though, that a family's status should be/could be divorced somewhat from mere numbers; landmarks could be in family honour instead. Off the top of my head, there could conceivably be a minimum number of members to be considered a 'House' rather than just a family - 10, 15, 20, whatever - after which the status of the House is linked not to numbers but to honour. Once a threshold of X amount of honour has been reached, the family is considered a lesser house, and will continue to be as long as their honour remains above a certain level. Reaching a higher threshold creates a great house. That way, there's still an incentive to create big families if people want to do that, as in theory there are more people to be doing all of the things that generate honour. But a smaller family of 20 or 30 isn't necessarily locked out altogether from even taking part - they can still aim for family status and can have a chance of achieving it without having to adopt every warm body that wanders past.

Having said all of this, there are probably all sorts of problems with this idea linked to the way houses currently gain/lose honour. I've never yet been part of a lesser or great house, so I'm not very familiar with how feasible it would be on a practical level.

I have never been a fan of the Great House system. It encourages a metagaming attitude about an aspect of the game that should be the most RP intensive. Most of the families that have made a name for themselves and are respected in the game or at least have notable traits are not powerhouses in this system which probably says a fair bit about it.

I do like the idea of certain actions/activities/accomplishments by family members earning "honor" which can then be used to purchase things from a family shop. Houses on prime are a lot more attractive as status symbols then a manse. Coats of arms, signet rings, banners that give bonuses when used during revolts,etc. There is a ton of potential to this along with the benefit of it being pretty straightforward. And eliminate the competitive nature of accruing honor. One family being great does not automatically preclude another family being great.

In terms of the family mechanic itself, as Nariah laid out, it's really frustrating to have to constantly get divorced and remarried (which kills RP) in order to bring more people into the family. At the very least progenitors should be able to recognize a child of the house without the help of the spouse.

I'm just going to quote this for posterity.

The issue is too many families. You have everyone and their mother becoming the head of a family and founding their own. Most IRE's don't let you do this, and the one's that do get out of control. See: Achaea.

What? That's not "the issue", that's a positive feature.

This.

Having sprawling families of 50+ members just seems, meh. At some point it is bound to devolve into a mindless bodyhunt for those numbers.

I think having a smaller number of people needed (such as not half an org) and more emphasis on what those people actually -do- rather than how many they adopt or give birth to would be much more interesting.

I reckon most great (or at least noteworthy) families and dynasties through time are not great because of having great numbers, but great because of the noteworthy people in it.

I like the way family trees are kept. I like having a family aether and newsboard. The rest of it can rot for all I care. It still shows me as having married into Talnara, which I'd love to see fixed, but beyond a few bugs like that I really have no vested interest. If Great Houses and all their benefits are removed, we still have the family clan, which has more features than a Great House anyway, except for the automatic induction.

I like Nihmriel's idea of smaller families become Houses, with status after that being determined by honor. If a family wants to be exclusive with it's membership, it shouldn't be excluded from the system. They would probably have a better chance of being notable to the playerbase by having high quality members. Heck, the Skyplumes ARE the Aeromancer's leadership, I think that deserves some recognition.

Speaking to something Eventru said, maybe something akin to affinity? Every member in the family's affiliated org earns a small amount of honor, while every member in the opposing org detracts a slightly larger amount. This would probably be every weave. This could only work for the diametrically opposed org however. Glom members of a Celestian family would neither add nor subtract from honor. This would mean that a family that holds strictly to their org would gain honor slightly faster, while those with members all over the place would have a harder time. If you want to quit your families org, but remain in the family, you would have to be an exceptional member, contribute some other way. I do think being in an elected position should still count for something, no matter what org you're in. Maybe, in affiliated orgs it counts for more, unaffiliated orgs stays where it is now, opposing orgs count for less. That way Thoros is still earning some honor for the La'Saet, but not near as much as he would if he were GM in a Celestian guild. Maybe he would earn just enough to offset his drain. Then the family can say, "He may be a filthy Taintling, but at least he's a powerful one," or something like that. I have no clue how the La'Saet's RP. You would need to add the ability to oust members to all Houses with this though.

I also think that all Houses should be able to gain and lose honor the same ways, especially if your Houses status is dependent on your honor.

Eww, the A word. I really, really, really am not a fan of negative reinforcement in almost any context it's used here. Reward people for doing things, don't punish them if their character isn't in lockstep with their org. It's one thing to lose a bonus by moving, like we do with orgbixes. It's another entirely to punish your god/family for it. If the family wants to disown the tainted, or hates Gaudis, or whatever, that's their call, it doesn't need to be done with a drain on them.

I strongly advocate this for the reasons stated.

If its not going to happen though its not going to happen.

I just want to be able to do something with my little inactive family with which I currently have no choice but to leave if I want any family stuff at all.

That's no fun!

This is something that really concerns me because then it really restricts family from actually looking for their family outside of their organization just as it has done with people in orders. I am not a fan of affinity however, if there were the rout to be taken, why is family member A worth more than family member B? Where you live should not have a huge drawback to your family, if you are going to have it have it be equal. So family member A lives where the family is stationed, family member B does not, so they basically just knock each other out one gains an honors the other looses to that one. So the only families this would really hurt are families who are moving their setup to another city/commune. I am seeing this with the mes'ard's right now, but it is more likely because most are inactive and those who are active are mostly outside of serenwilde anymore. But then there is also the issue of RP. Ixchagal I know was trying to do this whole thing the Magnagora side of the family (yes I know he moved).

Anyways, one thing I would REALLY like to see, is being able to deed you manse/clan (artifacts, please sometime think about letting us deed artifacts) to the family, weather it is a house or not. The head of the house is who would be in control of being able to take back said manse/clan, that way.. if a family head happens to go inactive, SOMEONE can pick up the families manse/clan. Usually these manses and clan are NOT paid for by only the owner and if they are willing to deed it I do not see where this should be a problem, they know that someone else can come up and take head of family and do what they want. Maybe for undeeding there has to be a vote as well so you cannot just get some upstart jumping in to make a profit as well.

In saying the above as well, election for head of house should be accessible by ANY family no matter the numbers. two people can still fight over things so.

Also, it was mentioned about a spouse when divorcing leaves the family leaving the one to either go back to no family at all or their former member. The ONLY time I have experience that I felt jipped was when Arimisia divorced Revan. I helped him to found the n'Kylbar historically house (not sure he would agree but I did look a lot of stuff up), however, because of how things work with the whole family system it was easier just to take the original founders of the Xandul thus leaving Ari with nothing when she divorced Revan.

One last little point, families that have no active members, as in they rejected/married out/suicide - should probably be dissolved after a period of time instead of letting them continue to float around taking up space because likely, those people are not coming back.

I think this is a really good point. The most honorable family should be the best of the best. Personally, I think that basing honor and dishonor on good deeds, rather than retention, would be a big step in the right direction. After all, where's the dishonor in a noble family's daughter being married off to a well-bred man? I could see disowning causing an honor hit (oh, the scandal!), but the regular function of the family system shouldn't be either rewarded or penalized.

I don't know that you'd need to do much besides tweak what's left over. Holding a government office has brought honor on families from the days of the first Greek republic right up to the modern day. War heroes are good; murderers are bad. Appropriate acts of piety raise your respectability in the eyes of other well-bred citizens. These are things the system more or less already covers.

I agree with you, largely. I think a large requirement was intended to prevent it from being 'easy', though that is not to say it may or may not need to be lowered.

And I agree than having someone marry out of the family shouldn't be dishonourable (unless maybe it's a family that's markedly less honourable than your own - or maybe instead a dishonourable family ("My, mingling with such scum!"), or into a non-house family, or something), and arguably should even given honour (if it's with a similarly ranked house, a banner house, or a markedly more honourable house). I'm sure we could spend all evening pulling examples of families that married off a son into a larger family by way of a patriarch's fourth or fifth daughter, bringing their family much honour, riches and such.

bump

Setting up marriage between families to add honor to the lessor house and slightly detract honor from the greater house. It would provide a whole slew of RP opportunities, as well as solve the divorce issue. In cultures with emphasis on Houses and Honor, a marriage of a son or daughter of a highly esteemed family to that of a disreputable one -was- and -should be- a huge deal. It would also add a lot to inter-house dynamics as lesser houses try to rise in stature via dowry for marriages with higher statue houses, etc. (Or if you're romantic, the conflict of the child of a Great House falling in love with the scion of a reviled family, and the conflict it generates as a potential 'stain' upon the family's honor.)

Edit: Especially if the gain/loss were based upon the gulf between the two houses. The bigger the difference, the bigger the swing in honor both ways for the respective houses.

Big families trying to achieve Great House are already pretty darned strict in terms of 'marrying out' rules.

Branch families please.

Aint that the truth...

Still, I like the idea, especially from an RP perspective. It makes the whole choosing of a mate potentially that much more interesting and scandalous. And perhaps an increase of political marriages.

Yeah, this is a horrible idea. The last thing you want is to add something solely for annoying people and causing drama.