I called it before we even got to the bubble!

Hey, mine isn't even from the bubble; it's from trying to offer raiders from the fight last night.

That picture is just a little very creepy. <__<

You like that people find out what things are affected by Badluck and post it here so the skill can be adjusted with respect to its actual effectiveness? Good! (It was Snafu this time, but eh... yea.)

Eh. I don't think anyone can argue that Badluck (and similar effects) should proc on touching transplanar devices. Pretty sure Bonds was changed because it also stopped such devices.

Does touching them require having both balance and eq?

Like geb posted, my theory is that any action that requires you to have both balance and eq is affected by badluck.

does this mean badluck could proc on sending messages

Hmm, haven't noticed it proc on diagnosing or normal movement so far, so maybe that group will have to be narrowed down by further criteria. Or I just didn't see it.

Man, I thought it was harmless at first but I can see where you're coming from now...

Yeah. I have a feeling Furien didn't see it earlier either.

That's true. There could be a whitelist... because I did have it proc on deffing up, scent (like you, I think).

I think the point on showing that Gregori and Xavius sucked was to prove that they actually don't know what they're talking about. You can theorize all you want about how this should work and what not but not all things in theory apply in practical settings.

To be honest Greg, you kinda seem like you don't. I never thought of you as someone who had a proper insight into combat. Hell since I started playing again I haven't been able to put a lot of effort into making my own reflexes hence don't give much opinions in combat but this thread kinda makes me feel like I know more than you. (Not about the details of your skills but how combat works as one whole system.) -.- I don't know Greg, if it's not your thing maybe you shouldn't have become envoy. Just diverts your time from what you really should be concentrating on. And for someone(in general) who doesn't really know what they're doing it's much easier for you to break things than to fix things. If you code for a living you should know that.

- Alger

One must wonder why people really want this thread to end. Entertainment value aside, it has helped shed some light on the OPNESS that is badluck! All we need is some more choke debate to spice it up.

Wait what? Showing Greg or whomever has "bad curing" merely proves the point for them- because they can demonstratably handle it fine. Feck, I can demonstratably handle it and was able to maintain an offense under the same scenario given in the original post. And if I can do it, that's saying something.

Even if you feel that he "doesn't know what he's doing" (which, without actually demonstrating why you think that, since I don't see how this thread demonstrates that at all), which, without supporting commentary has the argumentative value of saying "you're a poo poo head"- even if you believe that, it doesn't demonstrate anything related to the specific point at hand. Its just a pissing contest. You might as well play "whoever can eat the most butter is right about gobal warming, because eating the most butter makes you more awesome and smart".

Well, that's an exaggeration obviously, but the point stands.




This thread cleanly demonstrated that badluck is fine. It also cleanly demonstrated that researchers can obviously afflict and aeon lock far too easily and should be nerfed.

To reach this conclusion, I use the same logic that badluck arguments have used thus far.

Ability A caused me to lose.
Either my curing was insufficient, or Ability A is OP
I do not like the conclusion that my curing was insufficient.
Therefore, Ability A is OP.

The fact of the matter is that people who have fixed their curing handle it just fine. Even people who started off feeling it was OP. Its the same scenario as the researcher log in this thread- Kalin had a total of two harmonics lines going in to the fight, meaning his curing was bad for the abilities used in that fight. It would be like, if I fought a Celestine or a Harbinger without any proper curing at all, then hopped on the forums complaining about them. Of course Kalin was going to lose in that log. It doesn't say anything about his overall curing. How could it? He didn't have curing to speak of for the skillset being used against him?

Hopefully, the admin took a lesson from the pyromancy/aeromancy report, regarding gross bias. Pyros went from plainly OP to being the worst mage spec in the game, while aeros got boosted way way up. There wasn't any even hand in play there. While much of the practical fault for that lies with nonexistent pyro envoys, that fact doesn't justify the outcome.

This isn't really about Badluck. This is about one side of the game tearing down the other. While a good portion of the pyro/aero complaints (initially) were justified? It was a one sided lynch mob that resulted in grossly overcorrecting the situation.

We see the same thing now. It worked once, why not? I'm certain that the same sort of crusade could be launched against Researchers. Provided the same level of evidence used against Badluck is sufficient, all it would take is a few logs of losing to one, a pissing contest, and some rage. Boom, forum Jihad.

What the Admin, and anyone who cares, should really take away from this is:

The only safe assumption going in to any skill debate is that all envoys and combatants are irredeemable biased liars. Even if objectivity can be managed on occasion, this occurs so rarely as to be negligible. This is especially true in instances of skills regarding the opposing side, and quite meaningfully true, though probably not quite as much so, regarding skills possessed by the side making whatever statement is being made.

Since mass arguments then, exist merely as a function of this natural bias, with support being a result of raw population comparisions rather than a demonstration of actual fact (which in and of itself may or may not be telling of relative actual org power). As such, reaching a conclusion based on forum lynch is always a bad idea. Reaching a conclusion even with in depth envoy review is quite possibly just as damaging, if there is a lack of parity in representation.

Because you win in Lusternia by making the otherside lose on a meta level. We're doomed to these arguments so long as this is true. Side A wants side B to not be as powerful. Side A screamed about ability X of Side B. Side A won't really be happy until Ability X is effectively no longer considered powerful at all. Side B knows this is side A's goal, and so must defend it harshly, because otherwise Side A will cause the incremental death of Side B's ability over time.

As much as I've railed against choke, when the admin review it, they should keep the above in mind as well. Dogmatic lines such as "incureable aeon always destroys groups", or "it obviously balanced because it hits the caster too" are just that. Dogma recitied like a politician repeating the party line. When approaching an ability that a skillset has been largely built around, more than mere due caution should be used. This is true of sap, choke, badluck, and anything else. Certainly, listening to a forum mob, or even envoys that make up one practical "side" of an argument, is almost inevitably going to result in a conclusion divorced from "just".

This thread contains more than that, but you seem to focus your whole attention on the 'I died due to Badluck. Nerf! - No, you didn't die due to Badluck. It's fine.' part.
With all of the things listed in this thread that Badluck (and with it Snafu) affects, its rather long duration and its being uncurable, it is one of the most powerful skills in the game. It costs no power on top, and at 2 or 3 power, it would STILL be overpowered.
Above-mentioned list should be cut down quite a bit.

None of which is particularly supported apart from statements that more or less just say "I feel this is overpowered". For many of the statements, you could almost just copy/paste the skill of your choice in, and it would be just as supported by what is, in this thread, mostly drum banging and pissing contest.

Everyone is biased, but at least Kalin is nerfing his own skillset. Nerfing it more than even Geb initially suggested to. But that naturally isn't enough for the lynch mob.

Listing what badluck fires on also doesn't support anything other than a full accounting of what the skill does. It isn't as if, in listing it, it suddenly does something it didn't before. Honestly, if it was reduced to "firing on actions that consume balance/eq and focus cures", I don't think anyone would care about what was lost. Heck, that's what we thought the list was limted to for a long time anyway.

The initial post here was effectively disproved. Beyond that, it's been a lot of trying to keep the momentum up in a fraud of a jihad for the sake of seeing if you can manage a forum nerf.

Even as the freaking envoy for illus is nerfing it himself, and still takes a "wait and see" attitude towards the skill. Hell, I even told him not to do that, because its blood in the water for liars to stomp around saying "it's not enough! Start nerfing it, I'll tell you when its fine."

Which, naturally, is a horrible cry to listen to.

Again - Badluck should not trigger on touching transplanar devices. Regardless of anything else, fairly sure everyone can agree that that is a change that should be made at the earliest opportunity.

I can definitely see how it might be very powerful, but I have yet to see a good, objective log of a fight with BadLuck involved.

Synl, I can't see anyone possibly objecting to the list of things triggering badluck being reduced to "things that consume balance/eq and focus cures". It's clean, simple, and straightforward.


I don't think it should be done "omg right now" as a result of a forum thread, on principle, for several reasons, but I don't think that would do uncessary harm to the skill, nor can I see serious contention against it.