All I'm saying is, even if most people will never need it, why not include the source code with the purchase?

Several reasons. Main one is it would be a whole lot pricier than it is. Systems with such features are valued at 300-, 350cr! ... there's a lot more, but that is my decision, and it works out best for me to be so. Not that I don't contribute to umpteen other open-source projects already.

... no, they aren't. Not in Lusternia, at any rate. And it's certainly not like it would take much extra effort for you to include the code.

But I'm obviously not gonna change your mind on this subject. Again, though, I would caution people against buying systems if you can't actually see how they work. It just seems like a terrible idea.

Yeah, as a bit of advice from a customer side not releasing the source code is going to make you lose sales. Even if it is the best system ever the inability to go in and make updates and fixes yourself leaves your combat and curing at the mercy of someone else. A system with the source code, even if the maker ghosts out I still have the ability to learn how to code and build on it to support myself.

Surely. Though, those who do enjoy doing that build their own great systems! (and some who did that use m&m now, just because it works so as well too).

Edit: Oh, and if this maker ghosts out, the source code will be released. So that's a non-issue.

I just felt the need to second this point. I have built multiple systems over the years, though only recently did I start playing Lusternia. Knowing how the reputation of Vadi precedes him for many years, I felt that (despite being a massive open source advocate) non-disclosure of the source was not a problem. It should not be for others.

m&m is truly something very good and is a large part of why I knuckled down and stuck things out here.

For a lot of people, myself included, the time investment in learning a whole new method of combat set against a strong desire to engage in pvp is wholly offset by the concerns raised here.

Coders will always be the most interested in the source code, regardless of whether or not they could've just built their own systems. Coders don't always have the time to write the whole thing, and some prefer to adapt something made by someone else. Coders are also just very curious and want to see how others do things differently. (And, some people want to play with m&m without switching to Mudlet.)

On the other hand, I understand the need to guard some of your work so the system is less open to attack. People who really enjoy metagaming will go as far as to find and exploit any coded weakness.

The key thing is this is not an open source project. This is a commercial system. In Lusternia we've come to expect getting not just the source code but getting the whole thing for free. These are unrealistic expectations and have clearly seriously devalued the hundreds of hours of work that goes into coding a system and I apologize for the role I played in that. It isn't like we're used to having the open source code available to the majority of the software we use so it shouldn't be that strange a concept.

Once you have the source code for the system (and you're a coder), there is little need for the creator to be involved any further. You can tweak it, pass it out to your friends, build your own system off the concepts and sell it. Satisfying the curiousity of coders is not really worth it. This will work quite well for the majority of players and is affordable enough for them. If it gets more people able to actually play the game and get more involved with PK without just giving up then woohoo!

Vadi is choosing to go a different route. He's free to do that. You're free not to buy it. I think this is the only Lusternian system that does not have the source code available so it's not that big a deal. If you're not comfortable with the idea, just don't buy it. Treant is a great system out there right now that is free and is excellent for tweaking till you're blue in the face.

Vadi does help with all kinds of questions people have in the Mudlet thread, so it is not like he's hoarding knowledge and keeping it to himself.

As for the not passing out a system to friends thing though, unless I am wrong, I could pass my stuff onto someone who has the same guild and tertiary skills as me and they could use it. But then again, that is always a danger to happen with paid software.

I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong. It's just my opinion/perspective on someone giving out their source or not.

Yes, it takes hundreds of hours to code a good combat system. However, a coder is going to do that for himself, even if he chooses not to sell or share his work. Putting it out there for others to use only helps improve his own system through feedback.

My initial mention of the source code not being available was just a caution to anyone buying it primarily to see the code, as I did, since Vadi did not say this in his description on the web site. (Yes, some people assume things based on previous experiences, and it's our own fault.)

Cost is something that could be argued in circles, too, since it's up to the individual to decide for himself. I wanted my code to be free just to get more people involved in combat, but I didn't want to spend all my free time helping every user. Charging for support was more about saving time than getting paid. Obviously, others have their own needs to which they'll cater, and that's fine, too.

46th update to the system is now up.

C'est un double!

New update.

About releasing the source code. I want to add that I would probably buy your system if I were to receive the source code too.

The bigger pita that I've encountered is skillflexing, especially when the system handles things differently depending on what skills it thinks you have.

Yeah, the succor one will be made as an explicit option.

Sorry if this has been answered in a previous thread page, but what about the Hallifax guilds? I don't see them on the order page. Is it something still in development?

Edit: And am I right in assuming that the price was recently increased from 60 -> 80 cr?

Think he's changed it from 60cr + however many credits it was per extra skill to 80cr flat for that archetype, including all the skills.

Forgot to add those to the list, thanks for pointing it out.

Yep, it's been made simpler now (and is cheaper if you're changing around much). m&m will be out of beta later today.