sphere tasks need to be updated to be more in line with the focus of the guild. Also the scale is less then motivating. So those not in the guild understand:



not even 1 guildfavour for writing, directing and most likely acting in a prestige winning play. Now I know it is under review and will probably be adjusted, but it is a prime example how a point system can have an adverse aspect.

Let's say you aren't assigned a caste until you reach CR4. That way there would be less people to track, you wouldn't have to worry about as many alts. And by this point, it should be apparent to both the character and the city which caste the person belongs in. Like Phoebus, I don't like the idea of a point system, especially on a city-wide scale. Instead of points, just have the Caste Articles list what are considered appropriate activities for be favoured for each caste. You could still have a section at the end of each article that's similar to the current Article V.

As far as what counts as a bureaucrat favour, a performance review every x years to determine if you deserve one. This would apply to Ministers and probably to GAs too, since they're just high ranking bureaucrats. If you make x high enough, just the fact that you've held on to the job for that long is a sign that you're doing it right. If the Minister of Cultural Affairs organizes a festival that's a huge hit, that could earn a favour as well. Maybe have merchants donate goods or gold to the city; that one's a little more difficult to come up with ideas for.

For keeping track of who's in what caste, make it the responsibility of one of the Ministries, give him and his aides access to a project, and make a simple list. You could use clans, just induct someone when they seek entry into a caste, this could potentially allow for being in more than one cast, but then we'd need six clans that would just be placeholders, they couldn't really be used for much else.

I hope I covered everything, I feel like I wandered a bit.

I really hate waking up and seeing such long topics.

tl;dr

I guess the main thing I'm seeing in the suggestions is that it feels like the caste system will just fade into obscurity.

Giving out favours more easily to people who do "culture" things? If we did this in Glomdoring or Celest would this mean that they have a caste system?

I would say we need to look at the way we talk to each other, the majority seem a little informal and it could serve to remind people of their place in the city and offer encouragement to improve their standing.
By extension of this restrictions on titles may be required, prefixes being alloted to the city while suffixes are the property of the guilds until they give citizens the right to set their own prefix. While guild novice titles might need some changing this could help.

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I still suggest clans to serve as castes. The main reasons are

* visibility : is going to help if power allotments/favour eligibility are based on caste, with some minor exceptions(beaurocrats managing castes mainly, other castes being in the beaurocrat caste) you will know that the person is in the caste there is no question you simply look at honours and you will see the caste they are in, no searching through lists of every hallifax citizen there ever has been just honours.

* community : A potential side benefit is engendering a sense of belonging in each caste, on the higher tiers you are joining a selective community etc. If possible we might also build a scholars lounge somewhere that has a special entrance locked to only members of the scholarly caste with some other place for the artists.

* flexibility : a clan can be developed however we like, we could explore the castes further into things like Furiens concept of different ranks of service for each caste. The institute has its projects, perhaps through the scholarly caste there may be some projects involving members of multiple guilds.


Costs are an issue obviously, there is no getting around that.
With the exception of beaurocrats, as caste membership is determined by your highest caste, the vast majority would only be in one caste. A beaurocrat might be required in each caste to act as liason or the like to the beaurocracy/manage the caste. In any caste other than the servant caste this would simply be appointing members to positions of authority in accordance with proceedure (members elected to the council of scholars, etc)

That is one of the big problems with a point-based system: If it's not listed, you can't reward someone for it. In effect, it excludes more people and favour-worthy contributions than the current system does. It's one of the reasons why I think Caste Article V should just be loosened up a little. We NEED that "wildcard". The system needs a "this was good so you get favoured for it!" option. It's like trying to make a list of regulations all-inclusive; you're always going to miss something.

On the same vein, I still don't like the idea of assigned castes. The fact of the matter is, people are more complicated than that, and they have a variety of interests and a variety of contributions to make. No one falls into just one; for instance, Phoebus jokes about being a full-time artist, part-time bureaucrat. But she's also extremely invested in the economical well-being of Hallifax. So what does that make her? Just an artist, because it's the most high-falutin' job she holds? So sorry, despite being skilled and interested in a variety of areas, your success and contributions are defined purely by this one. Do not want.

A problem with a lot of these solutions is that it just gets cumbersome, limiting, and overly-complicated.

That's still a long time, it could work but casteless would be below servants and I don't see anyone willingly applying to be a servant.



This is actually something that's already supposed to happen and has happened some times, it's just that I think all the ministers are above the rank that they can actually receive these favours (remember that beaurocrats are below everyone except servants).



Unless projects have changed it would be only the project owner updating the project unless they constantly reassign the owners, also it would not clearly fall under the responsibility of any ministry it would either need to be a created ministry or just general beaurocats.



covered in my last post, but in essence clans exist so that we can create a variety of un/official organisations (guild/org management clans, social clans, family clans, training clans, defense clans, alliance clans).

I feel it needs to be said

This is Hallifax.

If Phoebus has her place in the Artist Caste then she is an Artist, even if she is happy to work in lesser positions according to hallifax her designation is Artist.

My complaint was against the idea that "someone in this caste can only be favoured for the things appropriate for this caste".

ah misinterpreted sorry. Favouring restrictions could work in the reverse of how they do now so the higher your caste the more things you can be favoured for.

A scholar or an artist could be favoured for just about anything, while a warrior might have favours for scholarly/artistic endeavours held back until they are considered part of the appropriate caste. This could create a difficulty in raising city rank that is alleviated by pursuing a higher caste.

I know what clans are for. What I mean is that the caste clans wouldn't be useful for much besides showing up on your honours. You couldn't really use the warrior clan for defense purposes because there will more than just 'warriors' who need to have access to the channel. I wouldn't want to encourage using the clans as a replacement for CT. If someone need actors for their play, they will want to look outside the artists caste clan. I was just pointing out that if it ended up not working, that would be a huge waste of money. I do like the idea, if only because it's easier than keeping a list.

Actually, I believe your suggestion is exactly the problem that is trying to be addressed-- the higher castes are being favoured and rising in CR for the most trivial of things, while combat people are not. This is a bad thing.

Security clearance has come up before in an event, certain information can be released to castes deemed to have sufficient clearance as news posts and clhelps. It may be determined that certain information is only to be viewed by the warrior caste and so we only put it in there.

There is a great deal of flexibility and while a bit... reclusive? I am curious as to what effect it would have on hallifax, I would expect some slight division between the castes that should be ok as long as we maintain the structure. The combatants can be lauded through the warrior caste perhaps receiving awards and the like determined by the leadership, but at the same time they need to remember that they exist to protect the territories, scholars and artists of hallifax for without them they have no reason for existing. and so on.

Clans wouldn't work anyway since you only get 10 free slots and your leadership would have to be in every single org clan to keep order.

It's not.

Currently the following actions are favourable at each cr

CR 6 & 5 : Scholarly and Artistic pursuits
CR 4 & 3 : Scholarly and Artistic pursuits, Defending, Influencing, Trade Mastering.
CR 2 & 1 : Scholarly and Artistic pursuits, Defending, Influencing, Trade Mastering, Beaurocratic Service, Pretty much any other favourable behavior.

If you consider Scholarly and Artistic pursuits as "the most trivial of things" then it should not be difficult, the issue is that as you rise in cr there are fewer things that you can do to get favoured.

I believe the suggestion is more along the lines of...

Scholars CR 1 - 6 : Scholarly pursuits, Defending, Influencing, Trade Mastering, Beaurocratic Service, Pretty much any other favourable behavior.

Artists CR 1 - 6: Artistic pursuits, Defending, Influencing, Trade Mastering, Beaurocratic Service, Pretty much any other favourable behavior.

Warriors CR 1 - 6: Defending, Influencing, Trade Mastering, Beaurocratic Service, Pretty much any other favourable behavior.

Merchants CR 1 - 6: Trade Mastering, Beaurocratic Service, Pretty much any other favourable behavior.

And so on. While it's rather weird because we don't reward everyone for scholarly/artistic pursuits it also reduces favourable behaviors the lower your caste.

EDIT: Bureaucrats


edit: Expanded with examples.

The Scholarly Caste, as a basic rule this caste can be managed by the GM of the Institute or a nominated Beaurocratic replacement.
The replacement would not be considered a member of the caste if they are simply a beaurocrat, their only purpose is to run the clan. The clan itself can be managed by a council elected from the membership, each council member is given appropriate privileges within the clan to assist this role.

The Warrior caste would default to Sentinel GM or the GC's, Artistic would be bards if we ever get them, beaurocrat would be mayor, merchants chancellor, servants whoever wants them.

Interesting discussion.

Disclaimer: I know very little about Hallifax culture beyond this thread, help files, and histories. (Go easy on me!)

From reading through this thread, this is what I've gathered.

WANT: a) caste system that respects the rp and lore of the city, not put the org at a disadvantage mechanically, c) cityfavours that reward substance rather than getting a check mark for a defined task without regard for quality

DON'T WANT: a) homogenization of culture, something complicated and tedious to keep track of

CURRENT SYSTEM: advancement is restricted to the top two cityranks except for those that do something artistic or scholarly

I was thinking that maybe Halli could mildly re-interpret their current stance on the city helpfile and integrate it with the hierarchy of Elder God circles from the histories. Just as the Elder Gods had "Circles" for warriors, artists, creators, thinkers, etc, Halli could have their own "Circles" or "Castes" for artists, scholars, beaurocrats, warriors, etc. After all "caste" can simply mean "a social class separated from others by ... profession".

CR 1-2 could be servants or those that have yet to prove their merit or aptitude for any particular Caste.

CR 3-5 could have cityfavour rewards for any worthy task from any of the defined Castes (i.e. Snuggles cityfavoured Barney for: Designing a greatrobe for the city cartel worthy of the Artist Caste). You wouldn't be restricted to one particular Caste or pursuit at this point. EDIT: Or maybe you would. There's pros and cons on both sides of having to choose a particular Caste to pursue.

CR 6 would be analogous to the Elder Gods' First Circle of Mediators and Leaders. These would be those that have excelled in their Caste, such as by proving to be an effective leader in defense or routinely inspiring others to band together for plays and cultural events, etc. Halli's helpfile states that "it is arguable that the ruling elite make up a higher caste" and "it is generally thought that they are servants to the collective". This philosophy for Halli's CR6 would be congruent with this aspect of Halli's unique culture. At this point, those who are CR 6 are expected to serve Hallifax by leading their brethren to further the Collective in whatever field they are expected to excel in. That may even be more than one field. After all, wasn't Clangorum essentially part of two Circles - the Artists and the Warriors?

That's what I'm worried about, the reclusiveness. As long is it doesn't completely segregate the population in terms of interaction, it could work. I like the idea of security clearance, that could definitely be an IC reasoning behind using the clans.

The only problem I still see is what do you do with those who cross caste lines. For intance: Bob is a member of the warrior caste, he works his way up to, let's say, CR3. Then he decided to write a scholarly book. Does he automatically become a member of the scientist caste? If the favour he gets for the book moves him up to CR4, is that fair to the other scientists? He only wrote one book, and now he's a CR4 scientist, while all the other scientists had to do much more in order to get that high. Or do we deny Bob a favour for his book, telling him he's a member of the warrior caste, and while his scientific efforts are admirable, 'we don't care, get back to your job.'? If we can come up with a fair way of dealing with this discrepancy, I would love to see the clans and separate favourable activities.

In addition to what Saran said, you could always go about reducing the number of other 'necessary' clans. Would we need combat clans for each guild if we had one for the warrior caste? The function of the current Bureau of Artistic Endeavors, the painting and statue maintenance clan, can easily become part of the artists caste clan. It may not be necessary, but it could be done if too many clans becomes a problem.

Ok, I have to say I don't like the clans idea. Want to know one of the reasons why? Five of my clan slots are eaten up by city or guild clans already. I really don't want to have to deal with yet another clan that I'm practically forced to be in. I have limited slots and really don't want to have to start shelling out credits to be able to join cartels and clans I actually do want to be a part of. On top of that, it's expensive to start up, splits things up far too much, the lines become blurred between who goes where... it really just isn't feasible. And what do you do if a citizen leaves their clan? Kick them out? Tell them they can't participate in city things or be favoured?

Crossing castes should only be down except in the rare circumstance of a beaurocrat being required in a caste they do not belong in.



This is actually a great example for why clans are very useful here. A few things are covered so points.

* CR would have no relevance within the clan itself. So even though Bob is a CR4 if he joins the Scholarly Caste he starts at entry level.

* I don't like the idea of denying favours, I would prefer that a log be created of the favourable actions. Bob is writing books and creating a portfolio to gain entrance to the scholarly caste, the favours would be... stored and when he joins the scholarly caste they will be given. This actually could result in some insta-cr6s which could provide incentive if you are at cr4 or 5 and have a few books under your belt.

* As a sub-point to the above, by having a log of the works by people who not in the scholarly/artistic castes it also makes it easy for the higher ups to offer placement in the scholarly/artistic castes to those who might not feel comfortable applying.

For those complaining about how keeping a point system straight, man up. You're Hallifax. The city of paperwork and order. Other guilds have done this. I've seen the Nihilists sucessfully keep track of multi-tiered and pathed systems using just scrolls and projects. It is 100% possible if you're not lazy and willing to take an interest in RP and keeping order.

The whole attitude of Lusternia lately has been that the easy solution is the best solution. Sadly, in Lusternia, the easy solution has proven to constantly be the worst and most boring solution. Hallifax could actually not do that, come up with something that doesn't use mechanics as a simple crutch.

And as another thought, a complicated system is going to make Hallifax far less homogeneous compared to the rest of Lusternia. If only artists and scientists can be CR6 then Hallifax becomes a city of nothing but artists and scientists in the way that Magnagora is in the end a city of all nobles. An interesting system will let people explore the CR6 servant. Think of how cool it'd be to RP a head servant within Hallifax, the best of your caste yet still within the bottom.

Seriously, Lusternia, stop being farking lazy.