Balancing around domoths is a very good idea.

Given every race could, theoretically, be 'oh pee' from the domoths, all races shall henceforth be nerfed equally.

Lo, Balance.

This is why I routinely get into arguments with people who don't play casters about how int is the best stat for a Moondancer. As a furrikin a double Astral link can be fatal even with a Rune of Absorption and trans Resilience.

I don't know anything about the statpacks, so I really have no opinion! My equalizing comment was also meant somewhat facetiously, though I know it certainly wouldn't faze me if it happened.

I'm a non-combatant to the highest degree, though, so why is my opinion even relevant in this discussion?

Ok so instead 10 charisma sipping for 20% less than a normal sip versus 16+ charisma sipping for 20% more? Leaps ahead of the competition. The +2 charisma was me not checking things, originally I was gonna ask about +2 but realized that isnt our job, we were not made to have high stats, so I changed it to a noticable debating damage increase. If the debate goes on too long we will lose, we have to try to outdamage early. Really was asking for increased debating damage and lower natural regen on taint.

I understand about trade offs, when you take 20% less damage but sip for 20% less that sounds about even (without actually doing any math), the regen is there to help passively, but let us be honest, you are not always standing on taint.

I still think that viscanti should have more charisma/dex, but I did not see +2 to each as reasonable without a major change to the race, so I went with debate buff. The dex is still horrendous, they will rarely dodge attacks with their dex, so its good they reduce it some at least, though again.. they sip about equal to it.

Though if weakening resistances is being considered.... +2 cha and +2 dex on of debate buff please

The consensus on the part of the viscanti interested parties is that their bonuses from resistances don't seem to outweigh the cons from the low stats and the sipping malus. Whilst the way things are makes good roleplaying sense for viscanti, the status quo does not measure up to the reality of the game and importance of stats, maluses and whatnot. Just like Celestians are asking for their main race to not suck, so are we (whatever the changes might entail).

Also, nerf humans.

But...viscanti aren't terrible at all, besides the thing with irontongue viscanti and their cha.

All people have said so far is that if you want your maluses or inadequacies to be fixed, you're gonna have to give up some of your pretty awesome buffs, which many of you keep downplaying as 'trivial' (regen) or not that great (resistance to really freaking popular damage types), but really are.

I'm going to expand on that.

There's been a lot of suggestions flying around, specifically for viscanti, but no one has taken a really firm stance on one thing or another or agreed with what is needed, and no one has admitted that cuts are necessary if too many benefits are added.

Let's draw up a quick comparison:



Versus this:



People don't like the sip penalty. People want more dex, maybe more charisma, maybe some bonus to increase debate damage. Adding just the dex (+2 suggested) makes the viscanti statistically superior in every way excepting charisma, with similar resistances (and magic being better than psychic) and disadvantages being in dispute of which is worse off. Playing with the sip penalty from this point on while not touching any of viscanti's advantages really, really looks like it would be asking for too much. And this is just a comparison to the master viscanti spec! Brood viscanti would become strikingly similar to igasho in terms of resistance, with only 1 less STR, 2 less CON, noticeably more DEX, and no fire weakness, no eq penalty, and no balance penalty.

What do people -really- want for viscanti? What is the most important thing to bring to the race at this point?

And also... where are the dracnari suggestions? Their resistances aren't nearly as nice as a viscanti's, they have an inferior terrain regen, they have the same sip malus, AND they have a level 3 cold weakness. And all I've seen in this thread is a request that their guardian spec get to keep its STR because of how their gauntlet skill works.

Some note was made to alter the terrain regeneration for trills/lucidian/dracnari to the cloudy/fiery terrains rather than keeping them as is (the nigh-useless flying/volcanic terrain), just to remind folk about that little summary I did.

And just as I remind of that, I'd also like to remind folk of a wee little selfish bump for more flavour stuff.

Dracnari are pretty ok, I figure.

Sure, the sip penalty sucks, but it's traded off for above-average levels in almost every stat. You start off as a nearly-evolved human. Unfortunately, a fully evolved human will probably beat you out, as with most classes.

Cloud terrain regen for Trill would be cool. I don't see why switching outdoor daytime regen for lucidians for cloud terrain is a good trade off though.

Alter/add I assume is what I got from it. Doesn't matter to me what lucidians choose.

Also, now I'm curious though - if humans and other go-to races were altered down instead of raising everything up (sans the things which really need it like merians and mugwumps), I wonder if the spread would venture out to other races.

What terrible facts? Vadi, if you're going to attempt to argue, please read what I say. I didn't once indicate that I was basing what I said off of faeling having domoths, nor did I say faeling was better than aslaran. The mere fact that you're attributing a faeling monk's DPS potential to domoths speaks of your ignorance in the matter. If you're going to attempt to argue, read what people say, respond to what they say, be intellectually honest. The type of comment quoted above gets no one anywhere because, at best, it's misinformed and at worst, malicious.

I'm really attempted to just respond with something like, "Vadi, the adults are talking," but that would do a disservice to you. If it's a personal problem, don't hesitate to contact me through PM.

Oh, my apologies for bluntly pointing out the attempts at politicking in this thread. Do continue ontopic and lower your anger level, good sir.

We discussed Viscanti to try to decide exactly what we wanted from Viscanti, and we arrived at "to not suck".

So here is the current requests.....

-2 lvls of taint regen
-1 lvl of magic resistance

For

Reduce sipping penalty 1 level
+2 dex
Debating damage boost

This would help offset their poor stats, but give them dex which is needed by every guild. The debating damage buff would help them stay comparable to high charisma without giving them more charisma. The BASE stats are not being increased at the moment because we believe if the sipping is reduced in effect then as stated we believe it should help offset the low stats.

These are for the base race, the specializations are under discussions, at least for +1 cha for master and singer viscanti. Will post updates as we go!

Edit: Yes some may say we are asking for more than we are losing, but I believe when a race is crappy this is normal, and it isnt like we are asking for things we dont need like +eq or something!

Lol, reduce sipping penalty to level 1, +2 dex, and stronger debating damage in exchange for a reduction in magic resistance and the removal of the 'useless' taint regen. Why not reduce the cut and blunt too to be actually fair.

Magic reduction is a pretty lame tradeoff, and I'm not sure why you're trying to add +2 dex of all things. And how does a bonus to debate damage make any in-character sense? At least the other influence-related bonuses were tangibly related.

The part about gaining more than you remove when a race is crappy.....


@Alianna:
Dex is because the race has horrible dex, adding it in general stops you from having to add it to both specs. The RP can be left to others to explain, but let us remember Viscanti believe themselves to be elite so they may push a point confidently, perhaps it is simply that they are so self assured in debate you find yourself more taxed by them.

Orclach:
The only orc I see around asked about +2 dex, +1 int. However.... it was also asked about an undead spec, as in histories the undead orcs were some of the most powerful undead of them all. (at least so I am told). For the sake of comparison, Loboshigaru have much better stats but do not suffer all the penalties

Except it's not crappy, it's pretty fairly balanced to be honest, give some to get some and no, giving up 1 level of magic resist is not balanced

Willing to entirely drop level 2 forest regen -and- faster herb balance for +1 con and str for faelings. I can't get any more generous than this, fellas.

Having played two different viscanti specs on two different characters, I think that is very true. I never did any combat as an Irontongue, but I really didn't have any problems getting my charisma up to max with all the easy buffs. And I loved the warrior spec for fighting.


Also: Willing to drop more charisma on storm trill for more strength and con.


Edit: Not to say Irontongue couldn't use a +1/2 cha buff to the spec, but it is fairly easy to get to max.