Yes we seem to agree Rika.

Hey Rika's comments are nice.

Yo world, listen to Rika on this.

Happy?!

lol, so much faeling hate, do the 3 SL faelings really cause that much of a ruckus that you need to nerf it

I'd be ok with lvl2 instead of lvl3 speed bonus, I thought faelings were fine before

-1 dex, that's ok

but stripping any str at all seems a little absurd (especially since multiple people have stated stripping aslaran str will cripple them as a warrior race), if you want to strip str, then leave speed bonus at lvl3 that'd be acceptable

The reason why it has to be level 1 is because old level 3 is 15% and new level two is 14%. That's hardly a nerf. New level 1 would be 7%.

Right, I felt the speed was fine as is, I didn't say nerf, I said don't buff, so drop it to lvl2

There is clearly and obviously an agenda here, because no matter how many times things have been posted, you keep going on and on with misinformation, massively stretched comparisons, and just all-out absurd statements. I am sick of it.

For starters, every single one of us posting here is in agreement that Faelings do not need to be sped up and should be dropped to l2 balance; this is not only not an increase in speed, it is a decrease (though admittedly not much of one, decrease != increase by any stretch of the imagination).

We would really appreciate it if you would participate in the discussion starting from what we have already stated is a fair solution in order to not buff the race, instead of using things that we have already agreed are over-the-top to justify further nerfs on top of that.

PS: Even with Domoths there is no real or reliable way to get to 18 strength without intentionally dropping your dexterity via expand. With Domoths I'm down 2 full dex points.

So we have an agreement to prevent faeling from improving. Even sounds like people agree with -1 dex, do we have a reduction in sipping bonus for 100 now? We are almost there!

No.

You don't get to just keep adding stuff on piecemeal.

I am also not agreed with the Dex, as in order to get the important strength points you already have to decrease your dexterity via expand by at least 2 points. If you are a non-Demigod Shadowlord you are in essence SOL; you're looking at 14 strength or so in pretty much the best-case scenario. Can't expand, no Titan point, and can't buy the Demigod point. You're not going to be getting far with 14 strength.

There was never any request to improve faelings to begin with. Everyone's suggested nerfs/bringing them back to normal stats. Only certain individuals were keen on taking a hatchet to the class.

It's like someone went into surgery to remove their appendix, but while in there, the doctor said, 'HEY MIGHT AS WELL TAKE OUT THEM KIDNEYS SINCE WE'RE IN HERE'. Scalpels. Not hatchets.

Why should faelings be even slower (level 1), when level 2 was more than enough to bring them back. The only class that can actually take advantage of the bonus to any noticeable degree is SL faelings, which, has been repeatedly stated, doesn't really have the strength necessary to fully capitalize on the bonus. Which is fine. Because of the bonuses.

I'm not even sure where the reduction in dex is coming from, tbh. Are faeling warriors suddenly 3-hit beheading people now? If we're talking monks, well....monks.

Soooo.... what I'm hearing from everyone really is that if we just.... deleted monks.... racial balancing would be A LOT easier. Thoughts?

It would certainly make dealing with Aslarans getting as fast as current Faelings, with much more strength, a whole lot easier. Heh.

But it is not going to happen!

Rika suggested nerf to L1 speed too, so "every single one of us" is wrong at least twice over. See above where I agree with others' remarks.

You don't speak for everyone so you are allowed to use I statements instead.

Keep monk balance and race balance separate. Period. Go troll elsewhere.

By "we" I am referring to a large group of us who have actually been talking, and bothering to read, the thread. Don't even bother trying to pretend otherwise; in the very post I quoted you were still complaining about Faelings getting an increase in speed when it is most clearly not desired, nor has it been suggested by any of us that an increase in speed was a good idea. Even from the very first posts in this thread, where the idea was floated.

I'll help you out here. Your post states, specifically, and I quote "I think the increase in faeling speed needs to be offset by a malus of note..." when none of us want to see an increase in Faeling speed and you also repeatedly make gross and out-of-place comparisons to Mugwumps.

Now, if you want to back off of that and actually join the discussion, great! Glad to have you.

I still personally feel that the low con, which (despite being able to work to offset it somewhat) is a significant malus which can never be completely offset. That's the point of it, and I feel it does its job for the most part. Excepting certain situations where classes can completely obviate the entire disadvantage by replacing it with what amounts to 19+ constitution points while losing none of the advantages. *cough* I don't see an issue with the race as-is, I feel it is balanced against its most direct counterpart (Faeling specs vs. Elfen specs, primarily Shadow Lord vs. Elfen Lord), so I do not feel it needs anything beyond the reduction in balance bonus to bring it back in line to where it is now.

Well, to be honest, it doesn't seem like any suggestions from this point forward (Or rather starting a few pages back) will be considered anything but trolling. We've hit the, "everyone is pandering to their races and nerfing my own" stage of thought. Also, I'm not sure how you can seriously suggest that you keep class considerations out of race balancing... because that's exactly what has been talked about since page one, I'm pretty sure. Race balance effects how classes perform.... this should make sense. I know you love your monks and what not, but it's still something I consider as a great solution to many of Lusternia's balance problems. You have your opinion, I have mine. My suggestion was completely true. I'd like you to argue how removing monks from the equation would not make race balancing easier.

I find it perfectly reasonable to expect maluses from faster races, and low con is not nearly a valid point due to the sipping bonus and how utterly insane how easy it is to buff health.

You are free to disagree, naturally, and gripe as much as you like.

How is removing monk even an feasible administrative option at this point? Delete monks is an unproductive rhetoric and causes a massive amount of noise for those who are working towards gently balancing them through sensible nerfs. Your post did nothing more than attempt to derail a downward spiraling conversation.

Racials are not related to monks, balance to the assumption adjustments are already coming. As it is we preempted the speed issue.

Being told that monk KICKS are strength, monk spec attacks are dex.

I am a faeling right now as I have said, high dex and heavy sipping. You cannot use Sahmiam as a standard either, I believe he is fully runed, so he would be fast as most any race, thats not an Aslaran issue either.

The -1 dex I thought was given an ok. If not, still at maintain speed by dropping it to lvl 2.

I will grab the racial changes so far later, 20 pages to go through to look for taurian and orclach so far.

As long as you keep up on the thread and stop making broad, dramatic statements / grossly exaggerating your claims / using a 'bonus' we're already trying to remove in order to justify further nerfs beyond that, I'm quite happy to disagree and hold a civil discourse.

It's difficult to remain civil when the aforementioned behaviour is occurring, however. Essentially, you get a response relatively equivalent to your input.

So. If we are agreed to remain civil from this point on; you're right that it is possible to get health bonuses. These bonuses give more of a benefit when you have a higher base, however, so there is no way for them to offset the penalty entirely, ever. This is mostly noticeable in burst-damage situations, and less so in more long-term areas (where the sip bonus helps keep that up). You cannot claim that the penalty is "not there" however; the only real question is how much of an impact it does actually have in the end. I do feel it is noticeable, especially as it is felt regardless of damage source (instead of just one kind of damage).

Short and simple- and this should be obvious to you particularly as it's been said in this thread repeatedly: Low con is the easiest drawback to offset, and can be achieved with health buffs in a myriad of ways. Damage maluses as an example, are detrimental as they cannot be offset easily and have very few reduction options.

damage maluses are also exclusive to certain cities/archtypes etc so they aren't widely as encountered as just having low health in general, so it should be easier to mitigate low con compared to damage maluses