Someone needs to explain to me how having passive rad for an effect is supposed to help hinder and keep people in the same room as the melder.

Okay, you want to know what the problem is? We don't have adequate representation to balance our own skills, so it's left to our enemies to do it for us. One guess how that turned out. Really, the problem is the fact that nobody in the envoy system is really for balanced gameplay. This is my first brief glimpse into all this, and I can already tell it's marred by agendas. To be honest, I think the envoy process should be straight from Envoy to the Devs with no go between.

If you can't see a problem with pyromancy, try it out for yourself. That is why Envoys are supposed to work on their own skills, because they have personal experience.

Edit: the lava flow idea is meant to be used possibly in conjunction with the smoke clouds idea. If they gust them all into other rooms, they might be moved into the room with all the clouds in it and bye bye they go.

This is a facepalm inducing statement, if the issue is with the skills then it does not matter whether or not the person holding them is in a guild or not. In-fact someone retaining the skills likely means that they may actually value them over other options and so their lack of membership in the guild is likely due to other reasons.

Munsia doesn't kill with pyromancy anyways. When I fought her in the arena she didn't even put up a mesne. Just used TK.

Me using a demesne actually hurt me, because i was wasting balance time rejecting while she just continued bursting away at me.

So...your problem is that you don't have someone dedicated enough to represent yourselves? No actual things like 'skill a is broken cause of x and y which prevents z from happening.'?

Yeah, a forum thread can't get that fixed for you.

Alright, I'll give this an honest shot. Do you want to know what you're doing wrong in this thread? Go take a look at the "Warriors are broken" thread. Someone brought up the idea that warriors are terribad. They came up with a list of things that are bad. (Just like you did, only more detailed.) People disagreed, and in response, they brought in logs, witnesses, detailed stats to wound comparisons etc etc. Most importantly, they did not say, "If you don't agree with me, then you're only here to nerf me more. Get the hell out of here."

A forum is a place for discussion. But a discussion that is dictated to only 1 person's tone is not a discussion. If you're unwilling to hear other people out, then YOU had better find the exit to this thread.

Case in point: People participate in these forums with the implicit understanding that the admin aren't going to see a thread and jump over it, immediately implementing the ideas stated there. They thought you didn't understand this, and pointed out that you should go through the admin-endorsed methodology with your ideas (which you clearly have some of). You ended up arguing with them about how that doesn't work, and how you don't want to do that now, and start accusing others who brought up objections of being biased. Well done.

Here, let me give this a try. The first post stated that pyromesnes are lacking in reliability of some effects, and that a couple of effects (salamander, firewall) are lacklustre at best, useless at worst. It's been pointed out that some of the "lacking in reliability" is just a mistake in wording of the AB files. It has also been pointed out that the main complaint against salamander and firewall (setting target ablaze) does actually work to building a pyro's offense somewhat, and could possibly see to get increased.

Another issue that was raised was cremation doing nothing when it fails, and still costing power. It has been pointed out that other instas also work similarly. I would like to add my own personal voice that the exception to this for instas are just that: exceptions, not the norm. I think it's reasonable to expect an insta to do nothing and cost power when it fails, unless there is compelling reason otherwise.

Another issue that has been raised has been the fact that pyromesnes don't disorientate enough. People can just walk in and out, especially due to the fact that room exits aren't hidden. There has been suggestions to this as well, either hiding the room name into "blazing desert" (or whatever that idea was) to adding rubble etc. Then there is the additional dimension that walking through it isn't actually hindering, so that people are able to moreor less ignore the effects. Responses has been made that pointed out stun was added in, and that this was pretty hindering. Personally, I'm not sure if this is valid enough as a counter argument, but there it is.

Are there any more specific skill problems with the pyros? If there are, why not bring them up instead of engaging in "whining" as some people call it?

Wow, there is a correlation there. Let me put it simple for you. We don't have anyone that is really capable of pinpointing the problems and laying them out for you with x and y and prevents z. Therefore, it's left to the opposition to determine how it all goes. I'm not a good enough fighter to tell you what is really wrong beyond my first post. If that isnt' enough, that is because once again we don't have equal representation.

Another cool thing to consider is borrowing other envoys. Some of those kids just sit around.

My suggested process-

1. Start asking around and find an envoy in your guild. (You? Yessss.)
2. Until one is found, go through the Templar/Illuminati envoy. (Those buggers can suggest for other skills. Amazing, I know!)
3. I needed a third to make my list not so boring. But yes, convert the energy that is building here into finding an envoy! Why haven't you considered? I am sure Lyria wouldn't mind. A quick message/prayer to Kalikai will grant you an audience!

Making threads is a great way to get ideas and get some attention, but this won't fix the situation!

Saying "Pyros suck, the envoys raped us" doesn't actually accomplish anything. Even if everyone agrees with that statement, that's not going to fix anything. If you're going to keep coming back to that, nothing is ever going to get accomplished. Every time I see you guys say that, it makes me sad, because it means that even if the issues are very real, nothing is getting done about them because you're too busy ranting.

If you honestly think the envoy process is a total failure, and Estarra has shot down special report requests time and again, then you're just out of options and have to accept that your class will always be broken and just jump ship.

If not, then you need to sit down and very objectively say "What is broken: ", "What is weak: ", "What is strong: ". I've seen maybe two real issues presented, and they're always stuck together with a pointless rant. You're not going to get people to fix you out of pity for weaknesses they can't see. You need to present hard facts. "We have lost all our fighters" is fine, but that's one line. That can't carry the argument by itself, because all it does is ask the question "Why?" You need to answer that for the point to stick.

If you could present a list, something like: (disclaimer: I made all this crap up as I went)
1. We can't reliably build burn levels against good curing.
1a. We have issues hindering salve curing.
1b. People can move out of the demesne, cure up, then move back in. This ties into 2.
2. People can easily move through our demesne.
2a. We can't stick an offense when they can easily just move, cure, and return.
2b. This reduces our group utility below the level of other demesnes. This ties into 3.
3. We have no group support.
3a. Mages are designed to use their demesnes to support a group fight. Pyromancers cannot reasonably fill this niche because of 1 and 2 above.

Then people could look at that, think about your points, and either agree with them or refute them as they saw fit, and we could all brainstorm ways to fix the problems.

So basically, you're saying that there isn't anyone capable enough to pinpoint a problem on your side, and you don't trust anyone else to do it fairly.

Right, I can accept that. So... what do you want us, or the admin, to do? What's the point of this thread? Shall we all petition the admin to give pyros some buffs without stating why they are needed? Oh wait, but you don't trust us anyway...

Stop the rhetoric. If you aren't capable enough, start learning and become capable enough.

+Edit: Until you give some solid reasoning, like Sylphas demonstrated above, you're not going to convince anyone to support any change to the pyros, no matter how useless pyros are in actual practice. Not the random forum troll like me, not the envoys, not the admin. You don't have to be top-tier, munsia level, or a vadi clone to start trying to pinpoint problems. Look at what sylphas (a wiccan) came up with.

Er yeah... Mage vs Mage/Druid is pretty much always going to end up like that... I'm not sure why this is a valid point because you'll end up with everyone talking about how TK's can do this.

I did say, good chap, that I have nothing planned for the next few months. Why not talk to your friendly Casilu if you have suggestions?

Edit: In lieu of posting something that was borderline mean, here's one more shot of me being nice.

1) Forum threads won't help your lack of envoy issue. Take the initiative yourself.

2) Blanket statements such as 'we are a poor class, buff us please' without any solid evidence (be it logs, timestamps, what have you) of why something is not working will not sway a majority of the forum-going populace.

3) Telling people to GTFO a thread if they don't agree with you doesn't help your case in either occurrences.

I'm gonna take that advice. You can have your end game raid feature called Envoy if you want. I'm sick of it already...

I am done here.

That is a fault of retaining intelligent individuals, AKA the fault of the community on your side. Maybe fix that.

The rest of your posts are, honestly, incredibly ignorant as you do not acknowledge that there are upsides to your skillset. Could it use some brushups? Yes. Some. Not a facelift or a remake or a special report. It needs 2 or 3 very precise envoy reports - one on burn levels, one on salamanders, and one to address if Pyros kill with cremate or if they should be going for damage kills all the time.

One of my older ideas was making burn levels increase fire damage taken.

In before lock. How about we start another thread and instead of all the forum-rp about going against freedom (I lol'd), we brainstorm changes.



Better yet, Daedroth... why don't you meet with people like Nydekion, Fillin, Esano, Malarious, Placeus, Shamarah, and Viynain in a manse, OOC wise, and work on some changes. Suggest ideas, throw them at the people you're meeting and see what they think? Change isn't going to happen overnight. It's a slow process.

Or, you can give up and whine about fairness.

There is a joke there...somewhere...I can almost feel it. Deep within my lolwut bones.

There's no Serens or Gaudis on that list?

In before lock

Yeah, how many experienced people you would trust to be unbiased are in Gaudi?


As for Seren, that was an accident. I just don't know too many people there that would fit the bill besides Iasmos and Lendren. Maybe Mirami.

Edit: And Shiri, since he's reading this.