So, if you could sip 15 times a minute (at 4 seconds a balance), a 7% increase is essentially one more sip per minute, so 16. Obviously, this has the advantage of applying to mana/ego (wounds?) too, as opposed to something like DMP that would be directly lowering damage over the same period of time.

So lets parse out the argument a bit. Hypothetically, assume sip bonuses were more readily attainable, and disregard the value of PvE utility. As a general rule, would this sip bonus be noticeable when I'm trying to build up wounds? I feel if anyone would notice it, it would be a knight in a long fight, as knight fights can be, trying to slowly get by wound curing by whatever means (be it directly or by making them sip health enough to let wounds creep up). All else being equal, is it at all probable that it would be noticeably more difficult to get wounds up on a target with the extra level of sip than against one without it?

Well, to be fair, it isn't a change in nature. Just a word change. Considering Halli guilds uses latin-intensive phrases for titles, I thought it'd make more sense than a "cloud". Anyways, sorry.

Sacredstar
TOUCH - Gives a Pendant of Light for 10 power
1) Pendant gives level 1 mana regeneration
2) RELEASE STARLIGHT to fill one room with starlight once per day
3) RUB PENDANT once a month to cure health/mana/ego
4) 5DMP against all damage sources

Blacknest
TOUCH - Sends a guardian crow for 10 power
1) CROW KNOCKDOWN - Usable once per month, your guardian crow will pull down all flyers overhead for five minutes
2) Guardian crow gives very small chance of attacking when the owner attacks
3) Maximum carrion of a Crow user is increased
4) 5DMP to all damagetypes

Standingstone
TOUCH - Sends a guardian foal for 10 power
1) Foal makes it easier to move more rooms before becoming more hasty
2) Very small chance of partially intercepting an attack
3) The power of Ringwalk, Parade, and Ancestral Curse are increased for Stag users.
4) 5DMP to all damage sources

Ironmachine
TOUCH - Gives a Tainted Spike for 10 power
1) Spike can be POINTed at others to cause disease
2) Spikes gives +1 sip bonus
3) SLAM SPIKE - Once per day, spike can be driven into the ground to cause an earthquake, which will sprawl everyone in the room and have a chance of stunning
4) 5DMP to all damage sources

So.

All of them give 5 DMP.

Three of them are pretty tame; two have, as one of their three non-DMP effects, a minor bonus for a specific sub-set of the organization (for the Black Nest, it's a whopping +15 carrion).
Those same two have as another of their effects a passive ability with a very, very low proc rate.
The final effect for those two is +1 movement on one, and a pull-from-the-skies effect for the other.

Then compare that to something that you can actively use to synergize with your guild skills (point for diseases), along with a sip bonus that improves PvP, bashing, influencing... any activity that involves sipping at all.

Why is there such a serious differential in utility and application of these new Constructs?

I wonder if the new-construct talk shouldn't be split into its own thread.

Wiccans and Druids feel like they need some love in this sense, they're not... exactly copy pasted but... 5 coven abilities, aura for a trans skil, wicca is shared except for 3(4) abilities. Though this is tied up with my larger complaint that wiccans and druids share all of their skills and only get three/four abilities that are unique to them.



City perhaps though Glomdoring goes against your statement, it's also interesting that apparently, historically at least, the institute never showed an interest in the crystals in the grid and their method for flight to discern if there were possible practical applications to allow themselves to fly.

Then again, if we consider that skills are developed out of a need then the reason for the institute lacking flight could be attributed to their arrogance as it is entirely possible that all things requiring flight were some lessers responsibility. Which, while annoying, is an interesting argument about whether it is a failing of the collective or a strength.



Moon covens can do:
light (ego regen)
cone (link but requires three people without the altar)
waxing (is not a coven ability, but if you have a circle of three it has a chance to affect them)
harvest (exp buff)
resurgem (resurrect effectively, but it requires three people and doesn't cost power for moon/stag users, slightly better because it summons the corpse but sacrifice probably balances that out)
rage (not affected by the altar)



If the altars were actually up for nerfing I'd suggest that reports may be necessary. The moon coven parts are, to me, what makes it necessary and teleport moon should be useful for people trying to get to astral (Not quite as good as the direct stable route cities have going up, but also easier to get back down for those without orgbixes)

Not going to move the whole discussion, just the latest bits for now.

Lazy.

I think both Hallifax and Gaudiguch would have been happy with useful utility and nifty and unqiue effects. Examples are like Magnagora's DARKCHANT BLOODRAGE, Celest's BATHE FONT, the communes' individual cones and being able to partake in coven rituals (Penumbra and Harvest comes to mind).

On top of that, they get generally useful buffs like extra regen, stat boosts and defensive buffs that help out with bashing and such.

On the other hand, Hallifax gets self-ageing (cool, but already exists within their own city and easily accessible), level 1 balance and equilibrium for 4 mins every hour (useful ability in combat, but underwhelming outside, which makes it hard to balance) and resistance to aeon (useful, but again, useless outside of combat and is not a very visible effect).
Gaudiguch gets illusion detection (not interesting, not visible and not useful), lower insanity drain (same as illusion detection, and Magnagora's DARKCHANT TRUTH is way better than this because it effectively doubles your duration in Astral (100% increase) as opposed to whatever percentage this effect would give (5? 10? 15? Still doesn't compare with 100%), and DARKCHANT TRUTH allows you to bash Astral and return with zero insanity while reduced insanity gain will still leave you with insanity - less, but still there), small chance for tempinsanity increase (we don't need more chance-based combat effects), pre-prepared Butterfly (a good step to improving Butterfly, but considering that it has a chance to backfire, and you can't control it's effects, still not a spell I'll definitely cast. At least now you don't waste 10 during combat, you just waste it before hand.), and ChaoteSign (only effect that is useful and will be used, but requires 20 power to access it in the first place, and you'll have to choose between the pre-prepared butterfly or chaotesign).

Here's my suggestion for EnigmaticPyramid:
- double-harvest
- a random stat boost
- random regeneration (as much as I dislike so much randomness and I realise how similar the two effects are to the Chaos Domoth, that's what Paradigmatics is all about)
- don't make ChaoteSign dependent on the chaos butterfly being available (alternatively, let Reimagination be powerless when cast on those with the construct effect just like Celest's Benediction)
- a x-times-a-Lusternia-day ability to do a normal illusion/Teacher tarot effect (although this could work like Iytha suggested and be under Hallifax's)

Truth cuts current insanity in half.

You mean, as compared to the cities individual linking?

I think that's a poor comparison - individual cone is available to 2 guilds (warriors and wicca) whereas link is available exclusively to guardians.

A point of interest...DARKCHANT TRUTH does not completely eliminate insanity, it cuts the current level in half. Depending on how insane you are, you might even be the same level. I don't know how that would compare to the natural resistance granted by the construct, but I don't think that the difference will be as drastic as implied.

I don't think comparing Link to Cone is a bad comparison at all. Communes get one ability in one skill. Cities get one ability in one skill. The number of guilds to which either is available is moot. Link is also available at a lower skill rank than Cone.

I would trade cone for a fae that does the same thing if it were a choice between that or three person cone, like... in a heart beat. It's one of the few things that can be ported across without issue to make it wiccan only... if we ignore the warriors

It being available to two guilds is potentially an issue resulting from the fact that the original commune guilds share everything...

And without the altar you'd need three moon users for one cone, which would mean while it is available to two guilds the number of cones would equal only a third of the number of participating members. If we have say... 20 wiccans and 20 warriors there is no guarantee that you'll have more than ten cones... if that many, so being available to two guilds is much less impressive when you look at the reality of what that actually means. More so if we look at astral coning.

Sure, you can say cone > link because it's more widely available, but without that construct cone is far worse than link.

I agree that cone is less enjoyable than link without the construct.

The fact that we are drawing a difference between the two (and you feel the need to differentiate) suggests they are not a particularly fair comparison.

In other words: Single-person coning is a benefit provided by your construct. You're welcome to take up the ages old complaint regarding cone needing three people without the altar, however I imagine our stance on it hasn't changed.

It strikes me as disingenuous to respond to someone suggesting it's a benefit (because obviously you hold it in pretty high regard) by comparing it to an existing skill (instead of an existing construct benefit), and only serves as a red herring in the ongoing discussion.

Their point was that single-person cone was a big utility benefit for the communes - which I think we've both pointed out now, it is!

Yeah, we're pointing out that it's not that big a utility benefit for the communes. It's not bad for a construct bonus, but the abilities themselves are incongruous. Drawing a difference is the reason for the comparison, and it's a very fair one.

Constructs should provide small perks that people enjoy but could also live just as well without. They should not be built to balance abilities. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that's the case here, but some of the construct benefits seem to be more about balancing than others.

Balance is the Holy Grail of Lusternia.

Ceren has an in with the admin, that's where all this mag bias comes from.

It's okay. I just didn't see you.

*facepalm* This part of the construct balances out a disparity, the primary benefit being focused there, as a side-effect there is an additional benefit after the balance, resulting from moon/night being a shared skill rather than a guild skill. As such to determine the relative benefit we subtract the wiccan and guardian guilds from the equation as now they are equalised with all appropriately trained members able to link/cone solo leaving the comparative benefit as the ability for Moon/Night Warriors to cone. The impact of this benefit varying dependent on the popularity of these skills at the time ranging from the entirety of the guild having the skill to not one member even considering it a possibility.

As an example, teleport is helpful for commune members who:
*Don't have nexus in planar
*Have ed off all the cities
*Don't have a cubix
*Don't have a ship
*Don't have astrology

Being able to get to the bubble is nice, but the greater benefit is the link to astral. Indeed, it is the logical reason for why the teleport also works on that plane. When you take a step back and contrast this benefit (while in tunnel vision very great) you see that any city based player has a more reliable path to astral. The benefit by contrast being the ability to teleport away from astral, diminished, perhaps, as a result of orgbixes and tempered with the random entry point. As such it seems more appropriate that as, on a whole, that the comparative benefit is lesser than it's actual benefit to the org as other orgs already have the benefit at base.

To me, it is disingenuous to argue that the benefits are anything more than the comparative benefit as any benefits beyond that are merely balancing something out. The high regard for the altar is due to it equalising some of the differences between the cities and communes, I would hold it in the exact same regard if warriors did not have Moon/Night and the skills still had the same restrictions.

I looked at the font just quickly, on a comparative level the altar now seems a tad unimpressive.

Also less enjoyable is an understatement.