Totes, and bards too, cause without bards druids would have ecology.



hrm, I find it underwhelming to think that my "class" is simply a mix of existing skills with four abilities as the difference, even though we were here first. The primary skill is almost always defining for a guild and yet the primary skills for druids and wiccan are currently shared with their greatest enemies except for the aforementioned four abilities.

This trickles down into an issue that arises when one of these four-six guilds attempts to modify one of their skills, as Lehki has mentioned,
The report that has been mentioned is being argued, in part at least, because by putting the new skill into night it gives it to warriors the other option is to put it into wicca which then requires taking moondancers into consideration, there is not a place where the shadowdancers could easily slot in this skill just for them, a possibility which exists for all other guilds. (except warriors)

If the admin were receptive to players envoying and changing the skills to make them more unique to each guild, it would be a step in the right direction. But I seem to have a memory of this not being approved (batbane seems to be an indication of such a policy)

The easiest way to fix this would just be to simply clone Druidry and make it be Hartstone and Blacktalon instead, and the same for Wicca, make it Moondancing and Shadowdancing.

It would be lame, because they'd still be mostly mirrors of each other, but it would help going into the future.

And then doing the same to Nature, but changing the name to Druidry and Wicca? It would be rather odd change yeah, but I guess it could make it easier to build some uniqueness into the classes later on.

Would be nice to know if any admin think the homogenization stuff mentioned at the start is an issue, or if everything's just dandy in their opinion. Are Druids and Wiccans intended to be so similiar, since their main skills are essentially, coming from the same source?

Is sharing Nature a huge issue? Cosmic and Elementalism are shared and no one complains. I figured we'd just need to split the main skills.

I believe he means splitting it into a "wicca" skill and a "druidry" skill

Yes, Elementalism is shared by Mage guilds, and Cosmic is shared by Guardian guilds. Nature is shared by Wiccan and Druid guilds. It's not really a big issue, but no other archetype shares their base skill. Before reaching their specialization and picking up their tert skills, all Wiccans and Druids are identical skill wise. Granted that's not a very long period at all, it's still kind of lame.

Tthough I'd love to see a solid split in skills, the feedback I'd gotten from asking about it would be that it would be a lot more work from the already overloaded coders. So, the next best thing I can come up with was to introduce new skills in the skillsets that would be present in guild A but not in guild B, and hopefully that'll work.

It the less desirable option and unless we're looking at a considerable number of skills it could end up being inflamatory ("we wanted to be unique... they gave the serenguard a coven dance and the moondancers a different one")

That being said, would this occur through the normal envoy process, a special report or something else?

Cause the idea of spending the next few rl years fighting to get changes through the envoys alongside normal envoy business is very unappealing.

From what I've seen, special reports don't really work.

Since you have to get approval to get special reports, it's more feasible (hesitant to say likely cause the end decision still goes to the admin) to get changes in through the normal monthly process.

That seems like selective perception to me. When it comes to what Saran asked for, I can think of one that did work to revamp a guild's feel and skills without more than a few bumps along the way. I bet there are more. But the ones that lodge in the memory are the ones that did too little or too much.

My goodness you guys are spoiled! Some other games which we shall not mention have guilds which are complete clones of each. Other games have dropped guilds completely and went with a couple of 'classes' which anyone anywhere can pick up (some exceptions apply).

The skill design of Lusternia, on the other hand, from the very beginning wanted to make guilds not only work but to make each unique. I think we have done that but not without cost or unforeseen negative side effects. Because there are so many skills and so many specializations (i.e., so many unique guilds), we have ended up spawning many more afflictions and systems than we had planned. Combat likewise has gotten much more complex and the barrier to entry thus lifted. Thus, while I applaud the idea of making wiccan/druid more unique through specializations and/or diverging skills, I am resistant to such an overhaul that would further increase the complexity of Lusternia.

Anyway, while I wouldn't be adverse to ideas of adding 1-2 new unique skills in druidry/wicca through the envoy process, I am not particularly keen on a complete overhaul. BTW, I like your confidence that it would take a month to completely rework drudiry/wicca; however, experience has shown that a complete overhaul (i.e., complete reworking), from design to finish, can take up to 6 months or more.

On the other hand, what I have been considering (though I don't want to go into detail), would be more tertiary choices that could be shared among certain guilds (at least more than one). If you have ideas along those lines, feel free to share!

hrm, that's going to be a .

Simply because one ability at a time can lead to months of UP and OP without a guarantee that the next change is going to go through or not.

Really? THAT was your response?

If you really thought there were too many systems and it was too complicated, every new class you release wouldn't be unique. You dare call us spoiled because we're complaining about legitimate problems and asking for a solution? I even put forth "Make them the exact same, but with different names so we can envoy more easily."

But I shouldn't be surprised. You'd rather make new things than fix old ones, I suppose.

At the moment it feels like Wiccans/Druids are akin to Runeguard... they're just a clone with one skill swapped out.



I think the biggest message we want to convey is that it feels like, for everyone else, you've managed to remain true to that feeling of uniqueness that is conveyed even on the skill level and, thematically, I really love the Moondancers.

But then I sit back and I remember times as a Nihilist or Celestine where I was bonding with the half formed, or as a Researcher when I was forging tools of crystals I'd harvested from the spheres, then later playing with the different tools that were presented.

While the original guardians are similar, for all the other guilds (except warriors) they have a full spec of skills that are unique to them. There are things they can do in the game that no one else can, I think for Druids and Wiccans we end up at a point where we realise that what makes us unique from the rest are four abilities and that kinda makes it feel less impressive that the rest...



I don't expect it would happen quickly and would actually be disappointed if only a month was spent on something like this...



One tangential thought I had was something along the lines of my spiritualism skill suggestion but make it a base skill that is for wiccans and with a spec for each guild that expands on the moon covens, though whether the skills interacting that way is acceptable/possible was the question.

Though, I'm not quite sure about the idea of making a guild more unique by giving them their own tert spec, it seems like it could end up in a single-option type scenario.

I just went zomg irl... I don't know about shadowdancers, but I wonder if the moon spec could touch on the seasons.

Sidenote: *waves a sign with "Groves, no not that kind" written on it*

That is, in fact, the exact opposite of what she said. She is open to adding more tertiaries that will be shared among at least two guilds. So instead of addressing possible balance concerns, she'll be adding more.

The least you can do is give the four druid and wiccan guilds a unique skill, even if that unique skill just happens to be 95% the same as another one, so that we can envoy changes. Adding one or two new skills doesn't cut it, because they still have to balanced for everyone who shares that skill. We already have enough clunky things like "Jinx removes Aeon so that Wiccans don't use it".

Is this the time to suggest bringing the monk/psionic tert of "Clairvoyance" back into conversation? Someone was kind enough to share some notes with me, so I have full documentation... and planning a half-skillset "specialization" could bring a more monk-friendly approach to psionic mechanics and skills. Ready and willing to move ahead on this conversation!

Sheesh, I was trying to be constructive and let you know what I thought with a little levity. I'll bow out of the conversation for now as it appears people are a little touchy over this.

To be honest, you guys are being a little belligerent. Estarra doesn't have to read forum feedback, consider our ideas, or even give them a second thought. But guess what, she does. Estarra is more invested in Lusternia than most MUD admin ever will be. It's a privilege that players get to talk so openly with administration about game issues like this. Anyways.

The reason new things can be tweaked so easily is because they're more plastic and can be modified to blend with the current combat environment. Wiccans and druids have been around for a long time, and that makes it difficult to just uproot and remodel. And yes, Lusternia -is- too complex. It's the whole reason you can't participate in combat without a system.

Changing a skillset isn't as simple as you guys are making it out to be. An admin lends an ear and is open to suggestions, then you graciously them out? Good grief. You are all spoiled.

Yeah...approaching the admin aggressively doesn't make them more likely to take an honest issue seriously. With that said, I do agree that the older guilds, especially the communes could use some sprucing up skillwise just because the lusternia they were designed in is way different from the lusternia today. Remember how long it took to get wisp back?