Jayden, let's not muddle the issue. Halo is functionally the same as demonscales and Wrath is the same as Scourge. That brings the differences back down to four.

Oh yeah.. forgot about that

Except that angels and demons are different.

With completely different pacts and combinations, yes. Which are far more of a difference than a bonus to weakening vs. a bonus to empowering.

If that's how we're counting things, Bluebell and Foxglove are basically the same thing, as are Slaugh and Crone, so we're back down to two. Also Celestialism and Nihilism are DIFFERENT SKILLS. Therefore, you can change one without affecting the other, which you can't do with Wicca,

EDIT: But yeah, what Solanis and Xenthos said.

Slaugh and Crone are not basically the same... passive anorexia on slaughs would be fun.

If we're counting angels and demons as the same thing, they are.

I'm fairly certain you could envoy something to be for Moon wicca only, if you had a good enough reason (or put it in Moon but have it for moondancers only, not SG). The existence of moon fae vs night fae proves that it's possible to have a skill available to one side but not the other.

I'm fairly sure it's based on skillset, not organization, though. Keep in mind that Druidry for Blacktalon is the exact same as for Hartstone until they skillchoice select Crow.

If a Blacktalon forgets Crow temporarily, they can meld EthSeren.

Edit: I don't know if that's actually a fact, we should test that. I know if they don't have Crow at all they can meld EthSeren, but is that also the case if they have the skill, just inactive? Hmmm.

You have ignored pacts which also impact symbols making these both different, they may function similarly but they are not the same. Is there an empower equivalent in Nihilism because I don't see it one the list and don't note anything obvious in the skill. Also keeping in mind that about 8? abilities from each spec are null and void at trans

Another consideration is that you might be similar but you are thematically very different. I believe, it is entirely possible, rp wise, that the fae I summon today served shadowdancers yesterday changing summon descs doesn't make a difference there and that is, unfortunately, part of wicca.

Also Celestialism belongs to the Celestines, any changes you make will only ever be balanced against yourself.

Enchantments show that skill rank in a skill can determine availability of an ability.

and damn deliveries making me get ninja'd

This depends on the admin, the stance needs to be made clear cause it's pointless to come up with a plan to run through the envoys if they're simply not going to allow the individuality that the entire thing is based on developing.

I've been reading over Saran's old groves suggesting and have been meaning to write up a formal proposal after working on how it would function, though I've been stopped by a few things. One, writing a bunch of other guild stuff, and two: In writing it, I realized it wouldn't work as a tert in the way I imagine it. Skip down if you don't want to have to go through some selected bulletpoints.

Groves:
=Druid would create a tent like room extension either at their bonded totem or on the Ethereal plane, with Ethereal making the most sense

=In this room, the druid would have to grow trees of various types according to their skill level, requiring time and either some ritual or a commune mini-quest (such as interacting with dryads in Serenwilde) and upkeep them.

=Once trees are grown, they can be harvested on a some limited basis for parts to be used in active skills, and will provide some small bonus to the grove itself. You probably wouldn't be able to meld the grove, so this would make up for that.

=In the Grove would be a link to the (presumably on prime) bonded totem of the grove user, allowing transversing to the prime totem, on perhaps a slow timer similar to painting travel. This would point at this being a totems replacement/spec, either a crow figure in the center, or a stag.

=If not properly protected or occupied, the Grove would be open to molestation and destruction by enemies, though not completely open due to some of the tree grove effects. Recouping from this would be lengthy/very annoying.

Then, throw in a bunch of skills based on folklore and harvesting from the trees, though not necessarily what was posted in the last suggestion. You coudl throw in stuff like whittling carvings that function like eco charms. The biggest pro of having groves would be that you could make it more guild specific (EDIT: And therefore more envoy-able to shove it down quickly after inevitable release OP-ness) , having the trees that each guild grows be different, or slightly different for slightly different focus or effect. And it would be druid only, woot.

End of that Rant, I'll necro the old post or start a new one after some ironing.

Outside of any new skills, or radical changes (delete sap and work up?) it would be really nice to just go in and change aesthetics, as was mentioned earlier. As far as I know, all that would take is replacing the text that sends when you use point cudgel or look at it with new text. If it's an issue of changing existing objects, contrive to have all the cudgels decay at once, I'm cool with spending the minimal power again, heck I'm cool with using only a sickle while everyone's decays also! Let us submit cudgel designs and hold a contest! Or hold an event wherein our spirits arise and bless us again, giving us new direction and purpose, or something!

If you expect the guild to grow and that we probably don't want the groves falling over just because someone skillflexed ethereal may not be large enough under, ideal, circumstances.



I would suggest not dryads, just because... interacting with them in serenwilde is all cool, when you take it to a guild level it may cross a line.

Also, keep in mind that the theme of the skill is folklore/secrets of nature. You tend to this grove of sacred trees and are allowed access to these secrets as thanks, I had hoped the skill would be immensely personal so going to others to tend it may detract.

*rage*

Your rage has well and truly been ninja'd

Right, right, I just include that because should be some work put into Groves besides waiting for things to grow or basic tending. I don't think there should necessarily be a joint effort with other players required, but more of you needing to hunt down or solicit somehow the seedlings to grow the trees and supplies to tend to them properly. Also, looking at it, if this were put in as a tertiary, it would leave the other druid tertiaries far in the lurch in RP. It made into a tertiary, I suggest that you allow trusted other people (with other tertiaries) to commune with your grove, giving it some (minor) boost and providing them with an equal (minor) boost. I like the idea of this taking over Stag/Crow, and fixing the Warrior's end of totems better though (That seems like more of a pain in the ass, unfortunately).

I see your point about space, but I can't imagine there being 30+ active druids to take up all of Ethereal Seren or Glom (or Faethorn, but good luck keeping anything permanent there). I would imagine that they would not withstand being left alone that long. You could include some syntax that seals off a grove, essentially deleting any real grove and saving it to your character, with a IG year long cooldown before you can open it again, so if you go minorly inactive (on vacation or something) you don't take up space.


Edit: I'd totally love to get together with you and some more druids/helpful people to try and figure something both interesting, balanced, and not a huge pain.

If we can get spiritualism for the wiccans perhaps they might have an ability that is just there to combine with groves in some fashion. The two spirits working together and all that.



During some of my quieter periods I could have potentially maintained a grove without ever actively using it, also never doubt the draw of shiny new things.



Well I'm always around, generally at most a message/pm away.

Not to be a downer, but I really think you guys are better of differentiating wicca/druidry for SW and Glom than creating all new skills that, while look cool, probably is too big of a project for any willing admin to do.

So I think you should just cough up that list on making wicca/druidry more different and then suggest new skills that thematically suit each one.

True, though this is sourced in Estarra's post...


also here's the rough list of suggested lines I threw together. Though, as always, I'm not sure about some of them.



Leprechaun - Greedy leprechauns steal from others.
Moon: An ethereal sovereign rolls in on its edge, a leprechaun in hot pursuit. He snatches it up and raises it triumphantly, silvery light lining his features.
Night: An ethereal sovereign rolls in on its edge, a leprechaun in hot pursuit. Shadows curl around him, halting his dash, the now forgotten sovereign rolling away.

Maiden - Moon - A graceful Maiden of the Moon will bless thee.
Moon: Joyous singing fills the air as the Maiden shimmers into view, her face alight with mirth as she dances around to the rhythm of her song.

Barghest - Night - The howl of the hound of darkness paralyses all who hear.
Night:

Brownie - Giggling brownies tickle your enemies.
Moon: Giggles shortly precede the appearance of a brownie as he dashes in from some hidden spot. Leaping towards Saran, he laughs happily, tickling his target.
Night: Giggles shortly precede the appearance of a brownie as he dashes in from some hidden spot. Shadows swirl around him, his giggling and dash quickly ceasing.

Sylph - Winged sylphs bring your enemies from the sky.
Moon: A gentle breeze picks up carrying with it a sylph, trailing sparkling light as she flutters gracefully to hover just above the ground.
Night: A gentle breeze picks up carrying with it a sylph, trailing wispy shadows as she flutters gracefully to hover just above the ground.

Dryad - Forestal dryads sprout trees in any environment.
Moon: A slender sapling curls up from the ground, growing rapidly. The hazy image of a pirouetting woman shimmering over the sapling until both become as one.
Night: A slender sapling curls up from the ground, growing rapidly. The shadow of a pirouetting woman coalesces over the sapling until both become as one.

Pigwidgeon - Mysterious pigwidgeons trip your foes when they flee.
Moon: Fading in to life, already running forward on all fours, a pigwidgeon rolls forward in a mass of clothing. As it stands, its enormous hat inclines politely.
Night: Fading in to life, already running forward on all fours, a pigwidgeon rolls forward in a mass of clothing. Shadows drag at it until it stands calmly.

Sprite - Tiny sprites heal your mind.
Moon: Circling lazily, a tiny sprite descends from above. Tittering happily as she dances effortlessly around in the air, aglow with silverly light.
Night: Circling lazily, a tiny sprite descends from above. Shadows caressing her form as she comes to a halt, silent and motionless save for her fluttering wings.

Pixie - Mischievous pixies bring sleep to your foes.
Moon:
Night:

Nymph - Wood nymphs soothe the animals.
Moon:
Night:

Mother - Moon - A Mother of the Moon heals your body.
Moon: A pillar of pure silver light blazes into life, the faint scent of cookies and milk filling the air quickly. As the light fades, the mother is left behind, a warm smile on her face.

Redcap - Night - Swift little fae with a thirst for blood and mischief.
Night:

Banshee - Screeching banshees attack the mind and body.
Moon: A mournful wail suddenly swells into life as a silver limned banshee fades into existence. With a blink, twin tears roll down her cheeks and her moans quieten.
Night: A mournful wailing suddenly swells into life as a banshee fades into existence. As she falls silent, shadows embrace her, twin tears rolling down her cheeks.

Mushrooms - The faerie mushroom circle summons you to the woods.
Moon:
Night:

Willowisp - Sparkly willowisps misdirect your enemies.
Moon: The sound of tiny bells accompanies the mysterious appearance of a silvery mist, a small ball of light dances around enchantingly as the mist quickly fades away.
Night: The sound of tiny bells accompanies the appearance of creeping shadows, a small ball of light dances around enchantingly as the shadows quickly fade away.

Crone - Moon - A dark, toothless Crone of the Moon delivers curses.
Moon: All seems to darken, until a sliver of silver light shines, growing brighter as the crone steps from the heart of the darkness and banishes the shadow.

Slaugh - Night - As beautiful as she is vengeful, a dark fae of disease.
Night:

Pooka - Playful pookas control your enemies.
Moon: With a swirl of silvery light, a pooka is simply here, somehow appearing to be growing while also not, a mischievous grin spreading across his face.
Night: With a swirl of shadows, a pooka is simply here, somehow appearing to be growing while also not, his face calm as he gives a simple nod in greeting.