Edit: A clarification I should have put in here originally is that I'm talking about the way families grow to become banner or great houses, not how their honor scores get built into culture. (The latter also has problems, but they are not fundamentally different from other conflict system problems, and require only adjustment, not a fundamental rethinking.)

Lusternia is heavily driven by conflict, and has many means for supporting and encouraging conflict. In addition to the more obvious things like village revolts and other conflicts for resources, or the ideologies in the histories that used to provide pretexts for conflict, there are many more endemic and subtle things going on that weave conflict into the very fabric of the game. Most key is how the organization system encourages, from the first minute you're in the game, an "us versus them" mentality; every organization tends to be suborned to the larger axes of conflict, so even the simplest interactions of getting newbie help or learning how to use aethers is reinforcing the sense that some people are your friends and allies, and other people are outside of your circle.

This is usually the justification for why Estarra likes the family system to also be based on conflict -- each family fighting each other for the resource of bodies, every engagement a battle (pun intended). And yet even the players who are the most gung-ho for the conflict pretexts in everything else often hate this aspect of the family system. (In fact, while I'm sure a few exist, I still haven't found a single person who likes it except those who don't have to be part of it -- notably the gods.)

The problem is that all the other conflict mechanisms and encouragements in the game are focused on providing conflict against the other guys. A conflict-based family system forces us to be in conflict with the people closest to us. That, in a nutshell, is why a conflict-based family system is no fun for so many of us. It's bringing conflict into the one place it doesn't belong. Plus it has to do this at the cost of being exclusive in the area where Lusternia is normally a model of inclusiveness. All this to force conflict almost no one wants or needs, into a place where it is far more likely to contribute bad feelings than fun.

That's why you can be saying something about whether the family system's focus on conflict is a bad idea, without saying anything about the virtues of conflict itself.

No brain power or awakeness to write a thoughtful reply right now, so I will quote the part where you really hit the nail on the head for my main problem with this particular issue:

Just to point out, the honour system does include a particular "us versus them" mechanic in the form of the honourable family culture bonus. We just often forget this aspect because it is realistically impossible to take it away from Serenwilde.

This topic has been done to death, so instead of forming the same tired arguments that get ignored systematically, I think I'll make a new suggestion:

Give family honour an opt-out function. This has always bothered me anyways, how all families are mechanically enforced to view honour in the same way, or how all forest families should give a damn about the snobbery of the city folk and try and "keep up" with them. They don't accumulate honour, they aren't affected by honour, they can't be banner houses, they don't show up POLITICS FAMILIES, etc.

Well, how about leave the system the way it is, and instead of honour, a family accumulates points, which allow them to purchase certain family powers, much like demigod essence. This would take a long time to accumulate, but would be sped up temporarily by things like gaining new member, and slowed by losing member etc. Such powers could be things such as the family aether, a family clan system (for help files and such), Family manses that are deeded to the family, but are not customised (like purchasing the manse, you would get a living room, generic description for all families, and can decorate with furniture and paintings (more rooms would cost more family points), maybe a power to allow wedding rings to give a spousal bond, which allows travel to ones spouse (each set of rings would cost more family points), and other such powers. That way not having family honour involved, one wouldn't feel as a conflict, but more of a reason to get members and such, and rewards.

That's what I was kind of aiming to do by pointing out the bit Phoebus quoted (and everything around it that was needed to frame it). Point out a facet of it that Estarra may not have considered in that way before, that highlights why it's fundamentally different. Particularly the bit about engagements and family formation -- the "honor" score issue is a whole other problem (and is like other conflict systems -- it probably just needs tweaks, not a fundamental rethinking), but the means of getting to where you can be part of it is entirely different in tone (and so needs a fundamental rethinking).

I think that the banner house system is designed to mitigate the us-versus-us mentality, giving the opportunity to extend the 'us' to a larger group of should-be allies. I also think that allowing families in general to opt out would be unhelpful on the whole. It's hard enough to 'make the numbers' as it is now - removing large groups from the field of potential family members or family allies would be overall harmful.

As far as the rp of snobbery and trying to keep up with the city folk... the largest family is commune-based, so I'm not entirely sure I can support you on this. The mechanics in place have the largest family helping the org, with power and the cha boost, which seems to be a desirable goal regardless of which org you're coming from.

Still strongly feel that the top family bit needs to have a reset period, and on a counter similar to cultural centre. That way, new families have a chance and it's more competitive overall. Why bother trying to compete, nobody will displace Talnara until that entire family goes inactive.

However, I've said it many times now, and it really feels like I'm just playing a broken record.

This would be nice. I've been wanting a serious look at the family system for a while now, personally.

I've always been enamoured of a real system of political and cultural jockeying between Houses, setting up arranged marriages to further alliances, appointing cousins to political posts to strengthen your hold on the government, or the drama of forbidden love. That also seems to be the point of the system we have now. Sadly, that hasn't come to pass. For one, that seems really fun, but when you're the one in the political marriage or being accused of nepotism, it's not the best of times. And two, it just doesn't work.

All I really care about with the family system as it stands now is the ability to show your name without needing to use titles, and the family tree tracking (which has its own issues). I'd gladly tear down the rest.

EDIT: Ignore me.

I think this really sums it up: Estarra is enamored of the same things you are in the first half of the quote; but, not having to actually live with the results, she doesn't realize the second half.

I totally agree that the way the family system works now promotes a lot of infighting in the families, trying to keep people from marrying out, trying to keep people from bringing certain people in. While the second is realistic and makes sense for a family to do, the first doesn't make any sense. It should be that marrying into a larger and accomplished family brings a certain measure of power to your first family, having connections to the great house.

What it leads to now is a lot of pointless bitching and strife in families, IC and OOC. It forces you to decide which of you, yourself or your spouse, needs to completely become separated from their family, sometimes absolutely as their family shuns them for reducing their census. It pits you totally against your family in any relationship to the point where IC relationships can be decided by the size of the two families concerned, what I consider to be a mostly mechanics and metagame number, with families that go to any cost to boost their numbers regardless of RP.

That's the big hole in the whole "but it's like it was in history!" argument people like to float.

NOTE: I missed the last post date on this thread. Sorry for the threadmancy



That sounds like an RP goldmine to me. As a player, I'd enjoy figuring out how my character would respond in any of those situations. It'd give your character a long-term goal to subvert their arranged marriage or to make sure your character has appointed enough relatives/allies to make sure he/she can shrug off the accusation of nepotism. If the character didn't have the connections but the player opted to attempt it anyways, that leads to more RP chances and reactions. In that regard it's analogous to real politics: people get burned all the time. Look at any supermarket tabloid or magazine.

I did a quick read of the family system and Great House system. From what I read, it doesn't seem too broken to me. Only Lesser Houses with distinct political motives need to watch out. If a Lesser House has political dreams they'd be very strict about who married who and quick to disown family members that refused to follow the rules (eloping/forbidden love, dishonorable acts, et al) by default. If a Lesser House isn't playing the political field, I don't see it being an issue. It'd be a large, caring family with a little bit of clout. Which isn't a bad thing, either.

As far as the Talnara family having a stranglehold, the other families just have to team up on them. Make temporary allies or marry a daughter or son off to make a permanent alliance. I'm sure it'd be possible, with enough characters working together covertly, to completely subvert the family.

Separate IC and OOC. All because a character wouldn't enjoy it doesn't mean as a player you can't find it intriguing and fun. Call me sadistic, but I've had the most fun, as a player, when my character is in difficult and uncomfortable/outright nasty situations. I find it forces me to think about my character's personality and figure out how the character would adapt or rebel.

I fully admit I'm probably in the minority

The problem being that everyone has to be into the RP of all that, and they're not. Some people just want a family. It's hard to get enough people for hardcore RP to make what we have work.

No, they will not.

A family that disowns members is buying a one-way ticket into dishonour. There's pretty much no other means of dropping honour more quickly. People are only going to get disowned if they are so ridiculously bad or obnoxious that not only the family can't stand them, but likely the entire organisation they belong to.

If you threaten to disown someone because they'll marry into a different family, you're just kicking yourself a second time over. You lose even more, and the other family maintains the same gains.

I think the breaking point in your argument is what you said right here. Many people would agree that as a concept, on paper, reading through it, the whole thing sounds like a good idea. But the experience of the idea says otherwise; the experience doesn't match what's on paper.

Problem is that this doesn't really work. You can use bannerhouses to put up 'alliances' but as far as I can tell this just boosts house numbers for the house that got pledged to, not much else. No one wants to subvert their family to another one, and it doesn't really boost anyone at all. The problem with the Talnara family being in the far-off lead isn't really the point though.
If you could actually do political marriages, I think the system would be less broken.

By the way. When is Talnara getting that seat on the Moonhart Circle? D:

I think they're half-way there.