Responses to Eventru's response to me:

-I fail to see how removing a variable restricts designs. If people want to argue that a weight value is part of the creative process, then so be it.

- Sets are cool too, but only if you want them. The term 'set' can refer to the designs of tattoos (the descriptions) that work well together or the combination of types/weights/bodyparts.

- There's nothing that necessitates the thing you want to swap out being the same size. Assuming weights will be uniform is ridiculous, especially when the total weight possible is 759.

- Having redundant designs only clogs up other potential designs as well as eats up more slots. While it's nice to have commissions, boy, it sure is boring copying/pasting the same design over and over.

- Fingers and toes have a weight of 2. Arms have a weight of..20? Perhaps you only want the buff to be half effective. There are plenty of factors here that will change weight values. Just -think- about it.

- By 'this' I meant 'this problem'; it's not an opaque reference. If I had written "this fester" rather than "this problem fester," you could make assumptions.

- I never once said that the weights had to be nonsense in relation to the design itself. "About a quarter of your back" would be about 50 weight. But as wrists have weight 5, I could want a back tattoo to be 45 weight. Oh wait, that's still "about a quarter of your back," and then you have a redundant design.

I also find it disappointing that you dismiss my argument simply because you don't agree with it. I'm sorry if I'm criticizing someone's lovechild, but ignoring arguments 'simply because' is disappointing. Let's be rational here.

How, exactly, would removing weight put unnecessary restrictions on tattoos? I -argued- the opposite and even provided examples, whereas no one has -argued- otherwise.

Well, the surgical suggestion would be to allow tattoos trademasters to flag a design (either in comments or in a tattoos specific space) as being identical to another already approved design, except with different weights/effects. This would allow the reveiwers to simply compare it to the existing design to confirm that they are actually the same without having look over the descriptions in detail. Ideally, this would speed up the approval process to the point where tattoos cartels could be allowed 2-3 times as many slots as other cartels get, to compensate for the large degree of redundant designs that are going to be out there.

It's sad to see a skill broken from the start because there is a lack of caring on both sides. I agree that minmaxing will result in a "x-race y-guild set" de facto system set up, where each guild publishes the set of public designs that work, and just work. I hate that though, I'd far rather have a system that allowed for maximum edges without sacrificing the sparkly RP value, without requiring massive time and resources. I guess I can always go for non-coded in tats, but now that coded tats are out, they will probably pale in comparison.

Edit: I don't know if this is a product of my mind, but it also seems that from admin-side there are often brainchilds that no one likes, but never get changed, or take a long time to get changed. If there is something player-side that could be done to facilitate good and decent changes getting done, I'd love to know.

I understand that you find sets cool and interesting, but I would be much more inclined to agree if they were an option, not a requirement. Designing and trades are kind of my thing- it's what keeps me coming back to Lusternia even when I'm terribly, terribly bored of everything else. To see this trade, with so much potential, being so unnecessarily limited, it's just really frustrating- especially when lots of people are saying what bothers them about it (and generally agreeing with one another, which I'm sure anyone would say is pretty rare) and receive replies that feel like their complaints are being brushed off without being taken seriously.

Having designs that only one person is going to want to use, as I said, is great as an option, not as the norm. So, so much could be fixed just by separating the specific power from designs, allowing it to be chosen at the time of tattooing. Certainly not every problem, but some of the most creatively and mechanically limiting ones.

And pretty much backing up some of the things Enyalida said- If someone wants their own unique design, they'll make it themselves or get someone else (most likely a friend) to design it for them/help them design it. I have never, ever been paid for designing something for someone, and if I tried to charge for having someone submit something to my cartel besides the submission fee, they'd just go somewhere else. If you try to charge more for your services, someone else isn't going to, and they'll go there instead.

This trade has a lot of really great potential, and I want to see it be the very best, like no one ever was.

List version of things I'd love to see:

1) Have it so you set the power at the time of tattooing, instead of having it be fixed to each design. This allows more freedom with designs, and makes designs being used by more than one person much more viable. It also will relieve design submission backlogs, as people won't have to submit repeats of designs with slightly tweaked powers. Also, as someone else has mentioned, forcing powers to be fixed to a design is similar to proofings on clothing or enchantments on jewelry being pre-determined; the current setup of tattoo designs does not fit with the existing flavor of the design system, and feels somewhat stifling.

2) If this, for some reason, is not seen as a good idea (sadness...), please at least add the ability to search tattoo designs by power and weight, as opposed to only body part. Trying to see which of the 50 repeat designs with small differences in weight/power is the one that fits you best would be....tedious, to say the least.

3) Create some kind of temporary effect in the skillset- be it making tattoos fade so they will need to be "mended", or temporary buffs/items that can be applied/made by tattoo artists. For example, something to the effect of the tattoo artist imbues an ink script/charm with ka energies, but the energies are less stable, so their effects will fade with time.

4) Clarification on comms allowed for designs that use black, silver, or white? Can only tinctures be used for tattoos, and if so, what alternative is there for these colors? I can't imagine being unable to make a solid black tattoo! If there is no solution to this, then I hope that reasonable non-tincture commodities can be used, for instance, faeleaf and coal for silver and black, which are commonly used in this way for other types of designs.

Thanks, hope you read this.

I'd just like to add, since I don't think I've said it yet, that I absolutely adore this skill. I've never liked the way tattoos worked in other IRE games, and this seems a splendid way to do it. I'm just quibbling about the mechanics. I'm already at work designing a custom set for myself.



Why not allow the review of a design, and if it passes, the cartel can request a copy of that design with everything locked except the power? These designs would then bypass the approval process, since the design has already been judged. If we're going surgical, that would be a start, take some of the hassle out of the approval stage, at least. Honestly, the only thing that should ever have to go through the review process is the design itself, you shouldn't have to run through the Charites a dozen times for the same thing. It's a waste of time for everyone.

Still, though, I say the best way is to seperate power from design. You get the tattoo designs you want, then you plug powers into those slots, at those weights.

Really, the only improvement I would like to see is divorcing powers from tattoos.

Sets are cool and weight is ok, it creates bloat but that's fine.

Having powers bound to tattoos creates unnecessary bloat and divorcing the two means that if I like a particular set I can customise it to the powers I want without having to spend 6 ig years redesigning things.

Arguing that powers should be linked to designs is like saying that enchantments should be linked to jewellery/artisan designs.

I should clarify, I'm pretty ambivalent regarding powers being imbued at the time of scribing - I don't think I've argued particularly hard to the contrary. I disagree with the reasons offered ("too many designs") because I don't view it as an actual problem. Indeed, the only points I've really argued are the ones that seem completely nonsensical ("weight picked at inking").



See above. I don't really agree with the comparisons offered, I think at their base they're a bit empty (It'd be more comparable if jewelry was crafted as enchanted, then I would think they should be part of the design), though. I don't really care if it changes or not; I do, however, enjoy a good argument for argument's sake.



I've not said anything when this is suggested simply because I'm not sure of the feasibility of it, so that's really not something I can comment on!



I've never been fond of temporary tattoo skillsets (I remember them vaguely from Achaea as being irritating to upkeep and painfully necessary), and every IRE game has done them. To me it feels kind of 'played', thematically - but I could certainly be wrong there, I do suppose.



I'm not sure on this, so again, I've not had anything to say. Once a decision has been made, I'm sure it'll be posted to Trademasters. Though using coal for tattooing? Ew, talk about unhealthy...

(And thank you all for backpedaling into the realm of non-aggressive!)

At this point, I'm not convinced that the tattoo design is "broken" (please!) or needs to be changed. I don't think people are truly thinking through the economics of how the system is set up. Yes, it is difficult to get exactly what you want, but that's how tattooists will make money. You want a 50 weight seduction influence power for your arms? That's probably pretty rare, so you'll just have to find a cartel who either has such a rare tattoo or pay to get one designed just for you. Everyone seems to be thinking that they should get everything they want right now with little effort. Guess what? That's not how tattoos work! It may be some time before you get exactly what you want unless you are willing to pay some high sums to tattooists to design specifically for you. Yes, it's hard and time consuming and maybe even frustrating, but once you get your perfect tattoo set, you'll feel that much prouder of your tattoos.

Yes, tattoos are permanent, but whenever someone changes guilds or skills or aesthetics, they'll be wanting to tweak and change their tattoos, thus going through the same costly (and profitable to the tattooist) process as described above.

My suggestions were more as a whole for the skillset, not necessarily points specifically against your opinions, but thank you for replying!


I should clarify- I was thinking less "temporary tattoo" (which has some negative connotations, mostly sounding "cheap" or "fake"), and more of a "magical script" type thing. Kind of like the coal runes from forging, but with magic ink on skin. It'd be a generic "symbol", rather than something that could be customized as a design. If that still seems too temporary tattoo, that's why I also had the idea of a charm item with that script on it instead. With the charm, as well, it could be said that the powers offered by the ka energies are only temporary because they aren't etched permanently into the skin like the symbols of a tattoo. I don't know, I'm just kind of throwing ideas out there. Maybe something will sound interesting!


Well, charcoal for tattooing is certainly not unheard of, and coal comms are used for charcoal for sketching purposes...

EDIT: Oh hey, another reply while I was typing.


Eeeeeeee, this is not how designing works!!! (can I get this in big, huge, flashing red letters? I'm serious! o_o) Sure, in the real world, you need to get your tattoo artist to design your supercool tattoo for you since letting Joe Schmoe doodle with a pen for a few minutes isn't exactly going to get you your dream tattoo, but this is not the real world! This is a world where everyone can make their own designs and only interact with the tradespeople to get the actual product. Profits do not and will not come from the design process. Please please listen to me when I say this! As much as I wish my love of design was profitable, it really, really isn't.


Ow, Estarra! That hurt a little! I'm trying to point out suggestions for things I think could really help the skillset, because I care about its viability. It's cool! It could be so much better with just a few tweaks that don't change much about how it works at all. My character's RP doesn't even agree with getting tattoos all over the place, so I'm not even one of the people who will be min/maxing weights and powers to get exactly what I want. I plan on three tattoos that mean something to her and that's it, so no, I'm really not in this for myself and wanting everything I want for no effort at all. I honestly, truly, from the bottom of my heart sincerely, just want this trade to be good for designers, the people who take it as their trade, and everyone who uses it to better their character (be it for combat or RP reasons).

As for "that's not how tattoos work!", tattoos also don't usually come chock full of magical powers taught by bipedal dogmen monks who were trapped in ice blocks by mysterious icy skulls. I think it's not too unreasonable to ask for some ideas to be considered, even if they don't fit exactly with the original plan. I'm definitely not on the side of people who think everything needs a massive overhaul, not by a longshot! I just think it needs a few nudges to fit into place and sit much more comfortably with everyone.

For a combatant monk that wishes to use tattoos as their main armour, this rationale is pretty much a slap in the face. If you want your armour? Guess what, you have to run the hoops, jump the lava stream and beg people to design for you, over the course of a couple of RL months! Haha! Sucks to be you, huh? Oh, there's an alternative: give up on using tattoos as armour and just use robes instead.

Guess how many people will choose the latter, especially since the difference isn't actually combat breaking, and the design process is so much much easier? I'm already rehearsing what to say to the enthusiastic newbie monk who is asking for a set of personalized tattoos, "Dude, you're better off just getting personalized robes: even though tattoos is the monk-only trade, and only monks can use them for armour, it's just not worth it."

Too many designs makes searching far more difficult, this is an issue. I can quite easily see that, given time, this would require a separate database being maintained to provide the search functionality required to be able to sift through the sheer amount of designs that can be expected to be generated.



Can you just try to imagine what it would be like if jewellery worked like this?

What if tailoring proofs were specified as part of the design?

In these two simple examples we see where lusternia has separated design from variable effect. This is why we don't have six versions of "a white robe" that have just been copied and pasted because someone wanted a different pair of proofs.

Indeed, the more time designers sit around copying and pasting designs because people want the same tattoos with a different effect the less time they spend coming up with creative new designs. Sure, the admin don't have to worry about the fact that players could eventually find themselves looking through multiple exact copies of "a golden sun" chest tattoo trying to work out if there is one with power tattoo power and then finding that there isn't one so copy+pasting the designs into a new sketch with the power because they want that design just not any of the powers attached to the existing copies.

The other thing that the players should be able to expect is that the charites will not be rejecting designs on the grounds of it being a duplicate if this overly restricting system is put into place.

Does anyone actually pay people decent money to design for them? I know I just make the designs I want, hand them the submission fee and a minor tip for copying and pasting it into the game. Why would you even bother looking for a rare tattoo? Unless you're using the same set as everyone else, they're probably all equally rare, so why not just make your own?

I don't know about you, but having to tie up between one to five cartels for between three to five years is not my idea of fun. In fact, it sounds like a total pain in the ass nightmare. I've been through that once already for Aubrey's custom outfit for her wedding, and once was enough. Monks aren't going to make a profit on things people dread doing.

EDIT @Phoebus: Who's actually calling for a massive overhaul? No one that I've seen. There's about two or three tweaks roaming around in this thread, and all of them seem relatively minor taken by themselves, and all of them seem like a reasonable way to fix it.

EDIT @Saran: Yeah, Charites rejecting duplicates would absolutely force people to do everything custom, at which point using the current design system for it seems awkward.

I'd go with "Indeed young padawan, but like the sapling that wished to blossom, all good things come with time." Then explain that indeed, some day, you will come to that - but it is a process you earn. I'd also be that horrible monk who'd go crazy getting the 'uber buff set' in guild tattoos, so that we could give them out as guild advancement rewards as well.

What are you talking about? You should be able to get the max tattoo armour with no problem. (I imagine that will be the first set of public designs, to get max armour for monks with the most used dmp bonuses.) Yes, it will may be somewhat generic but you can then customize the tattoos over time. Don't be so dramatic!

I don't know, but maybe the admin are just looking at it from a profitability for the tattooist kind of view. The guess-what, the harder it is to find, the more money you can charge for it! Which, I've tried pointing out in my sarcasm posts, that is really going to have the opposite effect. But hey, I'm not in this for the gold anyway, so I'll just shrug at whatever the admin decide and smile sympathetically at those who are. Maybe give them a little more tip than usual once in a blue moon.

Edit @ Estarra:

Yeah, sorry, I guess I was being over-dramatic about having to tell all newbies to give up on tattoos. I guess it's fine to have to spend a couple of rl months trying to get your customised armour as long as there's a basic set out there for you to use while you wait.

So, just to get this out there again. Maybe I'm wrong, but no one actually pays people to design for them. If that were profitable, THAT WOULD ALREADY BE MY TRADESKILL. Instead, I just make the design and the monk gets whatever I decide to tip him. If he asks for more than hitting copy/paste a few times is worth, I just go to someone else.

EDIT: The more I think of it, the more it seems like this isn't actually a trade skill unless you own your own cartel.

Don't forget that if you want a full set of what... sixteen tattoos fully customised and restricted to personal ownership it's going to cost you 80,000 gold before any other costs.

Sarcasm and similar "arguments" usually have the opposite effect on me. If you don't know that, ask around! Best way to get me to dig my very high heels in is to be combative, sarcastic and petty (not saying you are all those things, just a fact others may have realized happens in previous 'debates' with me).

Anyway, it is extremely late for me and I've just recently gotten back from a friend's birthday party that turned to be pretty 'festive'. With that, I'm off to bed and will look over any reasonable arguments presented in a respectable manner tomorrow. Just be aware that I am currently satisfied with the tattoo design so would probably not be open to anything besides small tweaks. I also rarely change designs that just go live rather than waiting a few weeks to see how its working. People often find their positions change after a couple of weeks once they actually see the results.

I really don't want to sound like FEELINGS COP here, but I care about this issue and don't want to see this thread descend into a realm of uselessness because of bitterness. So um...maybe us, on both sides (yes admins I am straight up telling you you have to play nice too), can stop, I dunno, making accusations about the motivations of others, or making claims like YOU DON'T CARE and WORLD OVER? I don't want to have good suggestions go unnoticed because the overall tone of the thread degenerated into blah.

oh gawd this is exactly the kind of thing you get beat up in grade school for

Well then people are stupid. You should make people pay for custom designs. Someone should try putting one of their cartel slots up for sale and see what the bids are.