Fixed.

Edit: Internet died for a while, late response.

He has a large realm because of essence accrued over the years he's been a God, he needs somewhere to put that essence, so he puts it towards expanding his god realm, you can't fault him for actually sticking to his role, and having people gain him essence to continue to expand it, while giving people a cool area to explore and see grow, and also some a cool rp/quest area for his Order members. And a large realm is a double-edged sword, sure, way more mobs, but it also makes it harder to track people down in there if they raid. Sure there's on exit, but there's multiple ways to get out if you have the means besides that one entrance.

Sorry for the late offtopic reply, but you missed part of the point with this reply. You assume that mechanical backing is restricted only to combat, which is off-base. I totally agree that rp without any mechanics backing it up is very very often simply ignored, because there is nothing supporting its reality within the mud.
If someone who is Lobo and decides to Rp that they have wings and can fly, they will be totally shunned/ignored. However, if a Lobo buys the wings artifact (or gains some mechanical effect like Celestines get to grant wings) then his RP becomes legitimate. Writing out org concepts or building org RP is very hard without hardcoded support, and anything created topples the instant something with mechanical support pops up, even if the replacement is more simple/boring.
The biggest and most obvious mechanical benefit of shrines may be combat related, but it's easy to use the various powers that shrines give out of combat. I use my druidry combat powers for all sorts of rp stuff and as justification for a lot of implied nature powers in RP/ It's aggravating to have everyone point at you as being a combatant and concerned with mechanical backing and suddenly you hate everything no-comm and believe it's totally worthless, which is often not the case at all.

I do find it extremly annoying to have only a few orgs have really active gods, who use their administrate powers freely (and often in a biased manner), against people who have no gods to represent them or do the same. It's that last bit about using powers on people who can't return in kind that I dislike most.

On topic, I feel where this is coming from, as a member of a dead guild, in an org with a single active god (out of 5). I do not think it would be a good idea either to divorce shrines from gods (even if it was possible) because shrines are really the one thing that order members can do totally on their own that has any bearing on anyone but themselves. I usually shrines, they (war shrines mostly) unbalance a lot of other skills that are precariously and only just balanced already and throw things out of whack, on command. This may have been worse in the past, with things like worldburn and shrine dodging, but has been alleviated somewhat by changing/removing those abilities. I think this should continue to be the trend.

It seems that most people seem to use Divine activity and Order activity interchangeably, and then argue that inactive Divine/Orders put them in a handicap when it comes to shrine warfare (for the lack of a better term). While shrines (war shrines, particularly) become nasty WMDs, it is something everyone can (and does, to an extent) utilize, even with an inactive Divine.

Glomdoring, for example, has three gods, all of which are inactive. Well, they're behind-the-scenes coders, so they don't actually interact much with their Order members, as opposed to Divine like Eventru, Hoaracle, and Elostian. However, all three are "active" in the sense that its members still propagate the Order - recruiting members, holding small RP discussions here and there, and establishing shrines. The non-participation of the actual Divine shouldn't be a hindrance to Order growth, in terms of RP and using shrines to "further the Light/Taint/Wyrd/etc."

I have to disagree that mechanical backing is required for something to be worthy. My experience is actually the opposite. The best things about Lusternia were things that people wrote up for their guild/org/order, did without any mechanical support, and maybe -later- had some mechanics written in.

Since I've really only played in one guild, I can only use it as an example, but the entire culture of the Serenguard is built on the Warrior Spirits. The only mechanics you will find that mention them at all is the collegium Geography quest--which was written and added in RL years after the guild leaders invented them and started using them. Since then, they have become central to the guild, with tradeskill designs based off them, appearing in almost all ceremonies, and other things. With no mechanical support to speak of. This is not necessarily a paradigm, but an example of a case in which a lack of mechanical support does not cripple an idea.

So I reject the claim that even RP must be mechanized in order for it to be meaningful. I don't suggest that all mechanical benefits should be taken away from Orders, or that any should. But if an Order could not survive without combat perks, esteem and other shrine offerings, coded holy symbols, or avatar powers, then the Order doesn't deserve to survive, since it exists solely for mechanics.

Long replies are long.

Eh, I should have clarified, but often without a god to promote and keep things going, orders fall apart or stop being able to expand as they have no administrative backup. Though a somewhat special and extreme case, look at Auseklis, who has two order members, neither of which can promote or change the OHELPs, none of the shrines are described and there really is no way to legitmatly add people to the order for RP's sake in any meaningful way. In exchange for not being able to use things like War shrines, I think it would be amazingly fabulous to let the order stand and bounce back as a player org instead of an admin based org.

Edit: Got ninja'd. If there are existing mechanics that hamper or otherwise point towards something not existing, or do so by conspicuous absence, it's very hard to push anything forward. I never said it was required to have mechanics backing all RP, but if someone were to come in and try to change anything there would be nothing stopping them from doing it really (besides other people, but that's not dependable). Talking to members of the newer guilds who worked on building their RP, it becomes very hard to write out something when new stuff is constantly being discovered in events and guild changes that is opposite to the established RP. Look at the Auseklis example, without any positive mechanics or administrative oversight to add in those mechanics, the order flourishing in RP is discouraged.

As someone who abandoned a dead order after languishing in it for far too long, I agree that an active Divine is primarily what keeps an order together. Without the figurehead around, people lose the faith and just go somewhere else or stop coming around at all.

And, hey, don't forget about those perma-favours!

Man, this thread exploded fast.

Is this even an issue? The last time I heard about this happening the God was just ignored, and everyone is quite happily associating with each other right now (as of the Wildnodes yesterday)... or is this a theoretical?

Mhmm.

It can be hard to motivate yourself and others when you see long lasting and very active gods like Eventru handing out favours and expanding the god realm for people to play in and getting their fonts/beads/whatever customized in short order, while you sit in a dead order that feels like a backwater. I am always thankful the Mayflowers haven't ended up like Auseklis's order (there are enough of us around who can raise shrines and induct to keep it going, at least), but it still feels bad. Sometimes the grass really is greener on the other side. We can do a lot without an active Goddess, but we'll never do some of the things Eventru's order can, simply because he's around to lead it. I could bust my ass for ages and I'll never be an avatar, for example, and I've by this point gotten more favours from Hoaracle than I ever did from my own goddess, even when she was active.

It was enough of an issue that I got a "talking to" by the orderhead over defending Nil just one time. It wasn't good, and so I was pretty much forced out of the order because I chose allies over the new guy. I'm sure several now are ignoring the policy, but it's made things a little uneasy in the order, from what I heard.

It was almost fun being advanced through the ranks quickly... until I realized that the first five or so ranks have absolutely no privileges.

Yes, but now go and compare what Celest has gained (in terms of rp at the very least) by... well getting lucky. It's nice and all to see you say that, and be so happy with what Celest received, but try to look at it from the other side.

As an aside: It's also the other things that are annoying like Celest having their tattoo parlour for about a week before Serenwilde even though we submitted it as soon as we could tmk.

It seems like some of the complaints are more rooted in complaints regarding Celest having a more active/involved Patron - which isn't necessarily true.

I'm sure Eventru's order can tell you the level of interaction they have with him, and it's about on par with any order without an active god.

The size of Eventru's realm is the product of a lot of hard work, on my part - its unique size reflects both the efforts of the order and how I allocate my personal focus. Any god could achieve the same proportions - and someday will, I'm sure - and I doubt we'll see restrictions on its size (I'm kind of at a loss as what it has to do with anything). Not to 'leap to its defense' or some such, but just to clarify.

Penalizing orders because people feel they're 'over incentive-ized' is a silly notion, and one that won't carry weight.

The main issue I have with your realm (and also Fain's to an extent) is that it is so large it defends itself.

There should probably be a cap on order mobs at 30 or so, regardless of size, heh.

We gained a lot of rp from him expanding. You get to explore the god realm, see the quest, and if he were to wish it, he could put some more mobs besides his priestesses allowing even non-Order members potential rp. If I was on the other side, sure I'd be disgruntled that I don't get what someone else has, but I'm not gonna say "Hey, let's take away what they have, just because I don't." Can't fault someone else for you not having something. We got lucky in the draw by getting Eventru, Terentia, and Lyreth who are pretty active. It is not our fault that you got the short end of the stick. Gaudi still doesn't have their own arena, but none of them are asking for everyone elses arenas to be taken away. Limiting Avatars I can maybe see, where shrines go, okay, but realm size bares no direct baring on conflict against other orgs, unless that org decides to raid the realm. Sure you get essence from influencing god realm mobs, but any order with a realm has access to realm mobs, and everyone has access to hunting and offering corpses to give essence.

Actually, the quests are available and doable by anyone - not just order members. It's simply a matter of knowing how to start it.

To Xenthos, weep, for I shall double the size of my realm, just to frustrate you...

Even better. Everyone gets some rp.

Not really, unless Eventru has put quests in his realm to attack him. At least, half the world is probably opposed to him simply because he is part of Celest and the portions that aren't... well some of them probably hate him too, I believe quite a few Serenwilders would hate him even if Serenwilde allied with Celest.

At best, the other orgs have one active god tmk. If they're lucky, any current ephemerals will choose to play as one of their existing pantheon so that they can build on whatever currently exists for the god. But it's not fair to force them into that, so they may start from scratch, working for the years it has taken Eventru to build.


Unfortunately, reducing the size of the realm wouldn't be fair. But preventing further expansion is.

What I'd hope is that when a God Character is being created there be a balance, doesn't need to be hardcoded, but something which specifies the maximums for the various order related toys. Not static, but only flexible to a degree say... Lisaera might have an avatar cap of three, if this were higher than normal she might pay for it with a cap on her godrealm, if lower then her god realm cap might be larger.

We're not capping godrealm size. Sorry!

I wil say there's a cap on how many cults you can have, though it does scale with the size of your godrealm.

Eventru's life would be over if there was a cap on the size of his godrealm!