First and foremost, this is me listing the main cons to Telepathy and showing that a few of the assumptions about it are wrong. If you want to be a troll or make more idiotic assumptions gtfo my thread. I can handle constructive criticism for areas I'm wrong, but if you make an idiotic assumption and say I'm wrong when you don't know what you're talking about, gtfo my thread.
So Don't Make Idiotic Assumptions.
Now then...
First, people complain about psyvamp damage being too crazy. While I will concede the argument of it being crazy in groups, that's honestly the only place it's crazy in. 3+ (properly coordinated, unhindered, alive) Telepaths would seriously murder most people easily, I'll admit that. But, outside of group combat, psyvamp sucks. It's honestly not feasible to properly drain anyone with the necessary cures, a good system, and they know what they're doing. 30+% ego damage isn't really that big of a deal solo when you consider that it can only be done every six seconds! For someone with the proper cures, all that damage is gone by the time the Telepath has full balance back. Now, these are the things that everyone has available to them to cure ego damage from psyvamp.

1. Scroll
2. Sip
3. Sparkle
4. Beast
5. Regen
6. Passive

6 different cures! The first three alone can easily cure the damage, the other three are just icing on the cake(for the target, not the Telepath). After just one round of a Telepath attacking, by the time they have balance, the only thing they've come out on top in is a smidgen of willpower drain, that only makes itself noticed for those long drawn out fights. Now, let's not forget mindburst. Old mindburst was what TPs had going for them, afflictions were just icing on the cake(for the telepath, not the target). But then the damage got nerfed, and now, it's honestly rarely used, because the damage is horrible. You'd think damage to all three stats would be a good thing, but with those six cures and the attack only able to be done every six seconds, that's horrible damage. There is no passive damage from anything in Telepathy, so no damage over time. All the damage is once every six seconds, with 6 different methods to cure it.
Now, we move onto afflictions. You would think two afflictions at a time would be a good thing. You'd be dead(but not by the hand of a Telepath) wrong though! Two afflictions, every 5 seconds is horrible, considering how fast most people can cure them away. Herb balance is 2 or so seconds for me. Then we have focus mind. Those two things give Telepathy affliction rate the middle finger no matter what. Then we have to consider those skills/potions that resist afflictions or can cure them. 7 of the 11 Telepathy afflictions are blocked by teas. I believe moonwater cures one affliction on sip. Do correct me if I'm wrong. Some of the best Telepathy afflictions are cured by kombu, and the two unfocusable afflictions are cured before the focusable afflictions! The 1 hindering affliction Telepaths have can be cured in 1 second, 5 seconds before the Telepath is even back on balance. Telepaths have no way to properly hinder the healing of an opponent, hinder the offense of the opponent in a meaningful way, no proper damage, a crap affliction rate, and it's only through sheer luck you can stick afflictions.
Now, a lot of people love to bunch Telepathy and Telekinesis in the same box and call it a day, but they're two vastly different skillsets.
TK is far above TP in terms of everything. It has a stun, prone, can hinder curing, damage over time, and meaningful damage. TK can even drain willpower faster than a Telepath. TK users don't even really have to work towards their insta, they can kill an opponent from bleeding. A TP only has their insta, which is difficult as all hell to pull off, since mindburst damage is atrocious. Now, I just listed some of the main problems when it came to combat, not even talking about several other glaring issues, like the fact that four of the skills in my main combat skillset are crap and are not viably useful. I've listed what I wanted, may have missed some stuff, and I may have missed a few facts. It's four am and I'm a bit tired. Will add any missing facts I can think of when I'm less tired.
This is all based on solo combat in my experience. TP might be a good choice in the other three mage guilds, but I think the lack of TPs in those guilds speaks for itself.

Veyrzhul seems to be doing just fine and as an aqua no less. Akyaevin did well as a stint as a telepath as well.

I've honestly never heard anyone whine so much about a skill, or really anything, before.

Telepathy is what it is. That it's not what you want it to be is personal.

I only use telepathy for dominate, tbh.

For many of us, passive = regen, so don't count that as an extra thing that everyone gains.

Use your illusions to greater advantage, too. A well-placed illusion can really screw with some people.

And, if you've never fought a telepath as a non-telepath, don't make stupid assumptions.

Amen.

But seriously, Neos. You have Phantasms for a reason. I can decently mess someone up with illusions, with the added bonus that mage vs mage, I can outlast most when it comes to willpower.

The only thing I might agree with in your statements is about mindburst damage, though I'll have to test in order to see.

I'm scared of telepaths. I run like a little baby when they attack me. Seeing my ego drop like a lead balloon sets off my OMGRUN instincts. If there are two telepaths I just scream like a little girl and flee.

Note: I've only ever fought Aquamancer telepaths. Unless you count the spar with an Aeromancer telepath that put me in less danger than my run-ins with the Aquamancer telepaths.

Neos, I know you really think telepathy and Aquamancy need big fixes, and sure, maybe some of it does need to get a few adjustments. But I think you really exaggerate just how bad it is. Everyone has trouble with fighting, and every skillset isn't going to work in every situation. Telepathy is honestly pretty darn good if you do it right! And if you're not fighting alone which, let's face it, is 90% of the time, you're even more of a force to be reckoned with because they're using their sip balance for things besides ego damage.

Your afflictions are hidden. You can really screw people up with the right illusions. You can really screw telekinetics up by dominating them to barrier (ARGH I hate that, 10 power down the drain and a channel locked for a few seconds)! If you're clever, you can watch the TK you're fighting's substratus balance- you should have a sense for the timing of the channel if you've spent any amount of time as a psionicist, and psisense will give you a nice little heads up when they use it. When it opens, dominate them to put up barrier. Augh! AUGH.

It's not as easy to figure out as telekinesis is, but it's still a pretty darn powerful skill if you use it to the best of its ability, rather than just using plain combos and crossing your fingers. Make some illusions! Think of creative things to dominate people into doing! Do you weave claws on people? The bleeding damage/clotting can help redirect their sipping a little.

I know you're probably not going to react to all this very well...your opening post reads kind of like "agree with me or gtfo out of my thread".

I think there's just a general lack of creativity in current telepaths right now. I'm one of them. I've been kind of busy the last few weeks and haven't gotten to play a lot, but my #1 priority when I get started again this weekend is thinking of creative TP strategies.

You really need to use all that's available to you: TP afflicts, phantasms (phantom, claws), and illusions. I also don't see many telepaths using their channels as they become available - they wait until they have balance on all three before spamming their next combo. I do this myself, just because it was easy to program. I think there's a real potential to using a more fluid style of combat that involves using your channels as they become available, combined with illusions.

I dunno though, I'll post some logs and things I learn after I learn them.

Because I don't know anything about telepathy, I can't really comment on the skill. But I can comment on this.

It is nearly impossible to make something good in both solo and group combat. The "I should be able to survive and kill in every possible situation" is an attitude that cannot balance the game. Maybe when there were only 12 guilds, it might... might have been possible. But now? I think the playerbase needs to accept that sometimes, skills just aren't as good in some situations as others.

I love Telepathy, why I'm still a Telepath. Love the concept, but it seriously is lacking. I really don't care for group combat, I prefer solo. I know most combat is group combat, but there's still solo combat, which TP is horrendous for.
@Llandros
Yes I do complain about the lacking aspects of my skill. I do because I want them fixed. And don't think you noticed, but Vey switched(because of lack of solo strength and he has a beast and uses illusions) Akyaevin hasn't been a Telepath in some time, and I've seen him tend to switch between TK and Runes. And two of the current Aqua TPs have considered switching over to TK. I might even have logs of them saying it on several occasions.

Illusions are nice, but you have to remember that there are several different systems around. You can never be sure which someone uses unless you ask them or use the same system and are in a clan with them. I've in no way said that I can never kill, 90% of my kills are mindburst kills, but most of them can be attributed to group not solo.
I whore phantoms/claws/phantasms out the ass, it's where most of my power goes in a fight. But phantoms/claws tick every 10 seconds, so you can only line it up once every other tick, and there's still teas and other affliction resist, along with reality which neither ticks reliably nor gives a message for anyone but the person it hits. I really wouldn't mind if psyvamp took a nerf in regards to group combat, if I got some changes to mindburst damage, psyvamp can take a nerf.
And honestly, my first post didn't even take into account me fighting in my demesne, and there's several things that can screw up a Telepath in an Aquamesne. Love is one, because either you don't reject them and you're not getting demesne hindering in, or you do reject them, which slows your already long offense to 7 seconds. Then especially in an Aqua/Aero-mesne you have the healing skills, which would end up removing at least one of the two afflictions you put on them, then consider that Aeromesnes heal all three stats. Then take into consideration your opponent actually hindering you, with prone, uncon, sleep, pinleg, etc. TP has 0 meaningful hindering, especially considering how fast the afflictions can be cured. Let's assume that a Telepath gets someone below 50% ego on a psyvamp, now they're waiting on psi-balances, and with the crap hindering a Telepath has, the opponent can simply walk out, and cure up and the Telepath is still waiting on balance. A Telepath has 0 chasing power, and unlike TK, doesn't have a ranged attack like choke, or leglock, or animateddagger to slow down an opponent.

@Iasmos
For passives, I meant something like divine healing. Which is readily available to everyone who wants it.

I'm not saying TP sux majur bawlz. I'm saying it is lacking in a possible aspect of combat, and the one aspect they shine in any skill can shine in, they just happen to really do it well.
Dominate sucks against 90% of combatants, because you will rarely ever catch anyone on balance, which some of the best things require. Dominating barrier won't really do much except put them off balance for one psi balance, they still have two more, and that doesn't really get me anywhere in terms of damage or afflictions. Dominating debate can only be done at the onset of a fight, because you will rarely catch anyone back on balance after that.

@Deschain
I hate fighting that way for several reasons. First, is the inability to reject without all three psi-balances, so against anyone in my demesne, my demesne is just there for show. Second, is if you need to move, you can't, because you're always off balance.

There can be a middle ground of a skill being good in groups and solo. If mindburst damage became worthwhile, I'd have no problem with psyvamp taking a nerf.
All my scenarios are focused on solo combat, not group. Even in the demesne TP has problems actually doing much damage. Even with whirlpool+currents up, it's not that easy to keep someone present if love happens to tick while I'm off psi-balance, especially right before I attacked, so that's 7s that they have to get away. If love ticks not only am I slowed down in attacking, they're being healed for any health damage I was able to do, and one of my afflictions, if they haven't healed them yet.
In summary, TP doesn't sux majur bawlz, but it is lacking and I want changes to it. Ask several certain people, I've discussed the lacking aspects of TP a lot, the argument pops up in no less than three of my logs and I really don't give a damn who is annoyed that I bring it up a lot. If someone can provide to me, logs of a Telepath being able to kill/hinder/afflict an opponent in a reasonable amount of time/effectively/reliably without taking a month/perform a miracle/get lucky with affliction ticks from claws/phantoms, then I will stop my "bitching" and put the argument to rest, and see what they're doing that I'm not. And I'm talking about against someone like Veyrzhul, or Akyaevin, or Sidd, etc. Someone who can access all the curing I listed with love up, both in and out of a demesne.
If TP was "fine" and there were no problems, you'd honestly see a greater number of them amongst the four guilds, but the majority of TPs are in the Aquamancers, three of them I had to convince myself to take it up. No active Geo combatant is a TP, because TK is by far the better choice in combat. Aeros had three active TPs from what I know, Alban, Anisu, Ridley, one left the guild, one is inactive. Pyros have 0 Telepaths last I checked, and the only Geo that I know that is a TP that participates in combat in any way is Jinto.

Summary: Telepathy is lacking in certain ways, just like every other skill in Lusternia.

Not every other skill, TK isn't lacking. But if a skill is lacking, then fix what's lacking. What I'm trying to do, but I just had to point out what's lacking to people. I've discussed possible changes time and time again, and I will continue to do so until reasonable changes are thought up and made.

No exceptions.

oh boy, the passive aggressive smileys have come out.

Neos, what I'm understanding from your post is that telepathy is not good in a solo fight but is much better in a group; but because You do not like group combat you want it to be better as a solo ability.

This thread is not going in a moderator-approved path.

Never said I don't like group combat, it can be fun at times, but basically anything can be good in a group. I want viability in solo which is still a part of combat, and the skill sucks at it. Psyvamp takes a nerf, mindburst gets a damage buff, bam, I now have some solo viability in actual damage to achieve a kill. Some people say warriors have a hard time getting wounds/affs/etc solo, but several warriors, or even one warrior with a group can still be pretty damaging, but that doesn't change the fact that people want to fix certain aspects of warrior combat which they find lacking, as can any other skillset. The argument isn't exactly the same thing, but the base is. You find this aspect of your skill lacking and wish it fixed, and I'm doing the same for my skills. As I said, if someone can give me a log of a Telepath killing someone in a reasonable amount of time, solo, I'll gratefully put the argument to rest.

My god! We have a breakthrough! Doesn't this mean that they're all pretty much equal?

Neos: Think outside of the box. You have more than just TP at your disposal.

We all have woes, nothing is perfect. I would like for my attacks to hit more often, or not have a different class do what I do better and faster. I think you're really missing what a lot of people are saying about your other skillsets, and other people's skillsets. I'm sorry that Telepathy doesn't mesh with your Primary and isn't as powerful as some other tertiaries you could choose, but that's really something you need to bring up with your envoy.

I dunno what to say man, you have to give a little to get.

I haven't ever really set up a long-term (more than just a few combos planned out) offense as a tp (and my psi balance chasing was mostly done by watching my prompt and then pressing keys - not very effective), but in the end, it really amounts to affliction stacking, and nothing else. After all, you want to stick addiction, possibly recklessness (although recklessness alone wouldn't actually do anything in a 1 on 1 against a good curing system, so it's really only addiction that helps), and stupidity always helps. Hidden afflictions are all well and nice, but won't help that much; people usually assume one of the unique tp kombu afflictions (and toss in focus mind on top), and diagnosing regularly against a tp is probably most of a sacrifice for other psionic mages, but not really anyone else (at least I diagnosed fairly often as a warrior and monk, and it only slightly slowed down my offense).

The problem that I see with tps is that to hinder even just a bit (from attacking, mind you, not even talking about movement...), you need to either give up your offense pretty much completely (by throwing out things like pacify, the mostly ineffective paralysis which should probably replaced by something else, or maybe stupidity, it can at least hinder sometimes), or you need to have your enemy so heavily afflicted that they're pretty much fodder, already.

So you have a combination of a fairly hard-to-mount offense (at least if you leave aside demesnes, which support the skillset to very varying degrees) and a lack of defense/hindering.

But you get: Nastiness if you have more than one tp on your side. Instant dominate (as opposed to the other forms in the game that need preparation of some kind), which allows for very nice moves in some situations. Mass dominate.
The option to (force-) debate people into kill condition (or someone else does it to help you). Can be very effective in some situations, less so in others.

Tk is still more useful overall and alot easier to pull off solo.

Phantasms and Telepathy are the main attack skillsets. And I've already said I use them on a regular basis.
Please to read what I wrote.


First, I've never in any way said that other skills don't lack, but I'm focusing on my main attack skillset. In no way have I said that I want it to mesh with Aquamancy, I've talked about solo TP combat outside and inside a demesne, which is horrible both ways. And my envoy, several other notable combatants, and even the previous Geomancer envoy(Fillin) agree with me that mindblast needs work. There was even a report for it!


I'm not saying that kind of way isn't viable against certain opponents for certain people, but I'd honestly rather not always be off balance, especially if I need to run/reject/diagnose/check wounds against certain opponents.

Once again, please provide to me logs of a TP killing in a reasonable amount of time. I've provided scenarios in which both TP affliction rate and damage mean nothing in a fight. Seriously, if TP was okay, then there would be more TP users spread out amongst the four mage guilds, but practically everyone goes TK. When Vey switched from TP to TK, he didn't even skillflex it, and chose Runes instead. So, I've provided my proof that TP needs help in certain areas, admitted areas where it's OP, and am fully willing to take a psyvamp nerf if I could get a mindblast buff to make it actually worthwhile to use.

Thank you Veyrzhul for adding in to this discussion.