Arel2011-05-24 19:48:49
QUOTE (Eventru @ May 24 2011, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now now, don't put words into my mouth.
I understand (and acknowledge) that conflict is centred around Hallifax and Gaudiguch currently. I don't doubt that people think they're easier to raid - I think a big part of that is that Gaudiguch and Hallifax are small, playerbase-wise. I don't believe the spheres are unbalanced or markedly weaker (damage-wise, their output is just a little under Baalphegar, who isn't far under the rest of the half-formed excepting big ones - and you fight three at once!), I believe the geography of the planes make it far more difficult to kill them all before defenders arrive, and overall the process far more time consuming.
I think people are blowing things out of proportion - time and time again we've seen people cry that this skillset is underpowered or no one uses it so it must be bad, then we see a skilled combatant come along, use it properly, and suddenly it's overpowered nerf (Tracking is a fine example of this - I remember early on it was regarded as 'useless,' then people started to really figure out how to use the hell out of their skills!). I think time will bear out and show they're solidly on par with everything else.
(To Tetra)
And discretionary power costs is a poor argument from Hallifax - they've said time and again the only construct they consider 'worthwhile' is the one that provides free discretionary powers on Cosmic, which they maintain on their nexus world. So while the argument itself might be fair at its base, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.
I understand (and acknowledge) that conflict is centred around Hallifax and Gaudiguch currently. I don't doubt that people think they're easier to raid - I think a big part of that is that Gaudiguch and Hallifax are small, playerbase-wise. I don't believe the spheres are unbalanced or markedly weaker (damage-wise, their output is just a little under Baalphegar, who isn't far under the rest of the half-formed excepting big ones - and you fight three at once!), I believe the geography of the planes make it far more difficult to kill them all before defenders arrive, and overall the process far more time consuming.
I think people are blowing things out of proportion - time and time again we've seen people cry that this skillset is underpowered or no one uses it so it must be bad, then we see a skilled combatant come along, use it properly, and suddenly it's overpowered nerf (Tracking is a fine example of this - I remember early on it was regarded as 'useless,' then people started to really figure out how to use the hell out of their skills!). I think time will bear out and show they're solidly on par with everything else.
(To Tetra)
And discretionary power costs is a poor argument from Hallifax - they've said time and again the only construct they consider 'worthwhile' is the one that provides free discretionary powers on Cosmic, which they maintain on their nexus world. So while the argument itself might be fair at its base, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.
Sorry, it is just a little frustrating because Halli hasn't been able to get up to full shield strength since the first raid and I've seen a couple of people acknowledge that Spheres are just easier to kill (including Shuyin, whom I think is generally respected for his opinion and doesn't whine as often as the rest of us). I don't think anyone finds it fun to get all their smobs killed every 2 weeks and then have to restore them and continue the uphill struggle of restoring the shield, especially when a lot of us are under the impression that the Spheres are weaker and easier to kill that the other smobs.
Also to the construct issue, the only reason we consider the free cosmic discretionaries worthwhile is because Halli and Gaudi did not get any good constructs. If we had one that was equivalent to AngelFont/Crypt/NightMoonAltar then we would probably find that one more beneficial than 5 DMP and electric resistance or being able to flit around on a cloud or free discretionaries since the power burn on putting them up for a sphere raid isn't actually that awful. The free discretionaries is only worthwhile because all our other constructs are pretty lackluster too.
Tetra2011-05-24 19:52:53
QUOTE (Eventru @ May 24 2011, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I understand (and acknowledge) that conflict is centred around Hallifax and Gaudiguch currently. I don't doubt that people think they're easier to raid - I think a big part of that is that Gaudiguch and Hallifax are small, playerbase-wise. I don't believe the spheres are unbalanced or markedly weaker (damage-wise, their output is just a little under Baalphegar, who isn't far under the rest of the half-formed excepting big ones - and you fight three at once!), I believe the geography of the planes make it far more difficult to kill them all before defenders arrive, and overall the process far more time consuming.
These past few months, Halli's player retention and interest in the org overall is doing pretty well. Then again that's comparative to what I consider a normal size for an org circa 2 years ago, so my calculation of that may be warped.
I don't think it's an issue of not having enough playerbase, so much as not having enough players who are skilled enough to defend or counterattack. That's sort of where the frustration of not even being able to boost our shield up stems from.
QUOTE (Eventru @ May 24 2011, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And discretionary power costs is a poor argument from Hallifax - they've said time and again the only construct they consider 'worthwhile' is the one that provides free discretionary powers on Cosmic, which they maintain on their nexus world. So while the argument itself might be fair at its base, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.
Well, I can't disagree with that. I don't even remember what half of ours do in the first place, aside from the flight one. But I won't tunnel into constructs because that's a whole different can of worms.
Lilia2011-05-24 20:07:34
QUOTE (Eventru @ May 24 2011, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(damage-wise, their output is just a little under Baalphegar, who isn't far under the rest of the half-formed excepting big ones - and you fight three at once!)
I'm not sure why you keep saying this, but it's absolutely not true. Spheres/pots defend their neighbors, and since raiders are going to go after them in the order they're easiest to get to, you're only up against three on the first one. After that, only one will show up to defend, so it actually gets easier as you go along.
Krellan2011-05-24 20:18:19
QUOTE (Eventru @ May 24 2011, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now now, don't put words into my mouth.
I understand (and acknowledge) that conflict is centred around Hallifax and Gaudiguch currently. I don't doubt that people think they're easier to raid - I think a big part of that is that Gaudiguch and Hallifax are small, playerbase-wise. I don't believe the spheres are unbalanced or markedly weaker (damage-wise, their output is just a little under Baalphegar, who isn't far under the rest of the half-formed excepting big ones - and you fight three at once!), I believe the geography of the planes make it far more difficult to kill them all before defenders arrive, and overall the process far more time consuming.
I think people are blowing things out of proportion - time and time again we've seen people cry that this skillset is underpowered or no one uses it so it must be bad, then we see a skilled combatant come along, use it properly, and suddenly it's overpowered nerf (Tracking is a fine example of this - I remember early on it was regarded as 'useless,' then people started to really figure out how to use the hell out of their skills!). I think time will bear out and show they're solidly on par with everything else.
(To Tetra)
And discretionary power costs is a poor argument from Hallifax - they've said time and again the only construct they consider 'worthwhile' is the one that provides free discretionary powers on Cosmic, which they maintain on their nexus world. So while the argument itself might be fair at its base, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.
I understand (and acknowledge) that conflict is centred around Hallifax and Gaudiguch currently. I don't doubt that people think they're easier to raid - I think a big part of that is that Gaudiguch and Hallifax are small, playerbase-wise. I don't believe the spheres are unbalanced or markedly weaker (damage-wise, their output is just a little under Baalphegar, who isn't far under the rest of the half-formed excepting big ones - and you fight three at once!), I believe the geography of the planes make it far more difficult to kill them all before defenders arrive, and overall the process far more time consuming.
I think people are blowing things out of proportion - time and time again we've seen people cry that this skillset is underpowered or no one uses it so it must be bad, then we see a skilled combatant come along, use it properly, and suddenly it's overpowered nerf (Tracking is a fine example of this - I remember early on it was regarded as 'useless,' then people started to really figure out how to use the hell out of their skills!). I think time will bear out and show they're solidly on par with everything else.
(To Tetra)
And discretionary power costs is a poor argument from Hallifax - they've said time and again the only construct they consider 'worthwhile' is the one that provides free discretionary powers on Cosmic, which they maintain on their nexus world. So while the argument itself might be fair at its base, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.
I strongly believe that Hallifax/Gaudiguch are raided mainly because people feel they are easier. I'm willing to bet bragging rights and credits that if you took a poll on forum, the vote would indicate that as well.
Technically speaking, no Cosmic plane or elemental plane is any harder to raid from another of the same plane. The difference comes down to discretionary and shrine powers. Less actual members of an org means less people to call powers/shrines literally because calling powers is mechanically restricted.
I think the administration doesn't realize how strong the combination of shrine and discretionary powers is. Distort has been buffed twice in the past year. Gravity as well got two buffs via "bugs". Discretionary and shrine powers cost essentially or even literally nothing depending on constructs. People want to live when they raid because of 2 million xp loss. Always gotta keep this loss in mind because ascendants can die 8 times outside of enemy territory and demis can die 13 times outside of enemy territory before it equals one loss in enemy territory. Less powers = greater chance to survive.
Part of that contribution is lower number of members. But the underlying attribute of lower number of members is that it means less defenders to call discretionary powers.
Ixion2011-05-24 21:22:45
Good points. ^
Ixion2011-05-25 14:28:59
How closely does essence in offerings correlate to mob level?
Unknown2011-05-25 15:39:34
QUOTE (Arel @ May 24 2011, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@Tetra- We'll have to see if the mob changes have done anything, but I've figured out that there is no possible way to convince Eventru that Spheres are (or were) mechanically easier to raid and kill nor is there any way to make him see how frustrating it is to have the axis of conflict be centered around Gaudiguch/Hallifax because people have experienced it being easier than raiding Supernals/DLs/Avatars and not being able to even keep your shield at full because no one smob raids anywhere else anymore.
The problem is, even if the mobs are an issue, they aren't necessarily driving this by themselves. There are plenty of factors involved:
Lets say you're in Celest/Gaudi/Glom:
Do you raid:
-Etherwilde, and fight the Avatars, and likely go up against what recently has been a sizeable mob of defenders who have held their own at the archway at times, with Magnagora quick to defend?
-Nil, and go up against some of the game's more long term combatants, supplemented by allies, and probably shrine powers?
-Continuum, where geography can go both ways, usually attackers seem to get a shrine of their own thrown down, and defenders, at least seem, more sparse all around?
If you're in Magnagora/Hallifax/Serenwilde:
-Etherglomdoring, and run the unmeldable gauntlet across the area north to south with Daughters and a coordinated defense?
-Celestia, and more than likely have active and rapid defense under shrine powers?
-Vortex, which, at least until recently, was rated as indefensible, and even if it were, defenders usually didn't show in significant numbers?
The real trick to any of these is to do it when nobody is around. But if people ARE around, Continuum/Vortex are the least likely to be defended, and perhaps more importantly, the least likely to have anyone on-plane to raise the alarm before the attackers have a meld and shrine locked down.
I mean, between being in Seren, Gaudi, and Celest? It seems like there is almost always someone on Celestia. There was often someone in Etherwilde. But with Vortex, it seemed like nobody went up there regularly.
It might be the nature of the quests related to the planes. With the communes, they spend a lot of time on the plane itself, or in faethorn. With the old cities, they just have to prance about influencing things.
With the new cities, the quests are a little more tedious. Go to the nexus world, do some crap, run around the plane giving things to mob numbers instead of spamming influence or killing essense critters. I don't know if that's why, but it always felt like fewer people wanted to do those.
Unknown2011-05-25 18:23:14
QUOTE (Ytran @ May 22 2011, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The number of corpses you walk away with when bashing in a group isn't really a good indication of how good a person's bashing is, since the damage from each person is cumulative. Xenthos, for instance, getting an obliterating crit and Talan finishing it off doesn't mean that Talan's bashing is as good or better than Xenthos's (just reusing names as an example, here). And if Xenthos is leading, and generally getting the first hit on things, it's very possible that something like that happened consistently.
It's been addressed already, but it is an indicator over long periods of time. Back when I would Ur'bash (without Fillin), I'd easily have 200+ mobs that everyone else within an hour. However, to point out that mages do have an advantage in bashing, if either Esano or Fillin (granted, destruction) joined in, my advantage was destroyed as my 3x criticals couldn't compete with their one. I haven't tested anything with the change, but I wouldn't be surprised if monks are significantly less effective. On Astral mobs before changes, I could get 2x WSC in a single form + some other crit and NOT kill a linked mob that had been damaged already. It's quite sad seeing one such form follow an Annihilating crit from a mage that killed the mob.
QUOTE (Dys @ May 24 2011, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are the planes harder to navigate when you're raiding, or is that more about places for defenders to attack?
I saw a fleshpot go down in 46s from the first blow with no deaths apart from me three times, and the group wasn't even perfectly coordinated. Are spheres similar? Hopefully the update has increased those a bit.
I'll try and work out how to post the log too.
I saw a fleshpot go down in 46s from the first blow with no deaths apart from me three times, and the group wasn't even perfectly coordinated. Are spheres similar? Hopefully the update has increased those a bit.
I'll try and work out how to post the log too.
How was it not perfectly coordinated? If you mean no everyone attacking the pot, that was intentional.
Unknown2011-05-26 15:20:32
QUOTE (Sahmiam Mes'ard @ May 25 2011, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How was it not perfectly coordinated? If you mean no everyone attacking the pot, that was intentional.
The one I saw was impressive but looked like you could have done it maybe 5-10s faster with everything prepared. Of course there's probably things I don't know about. And that's not a challenge...
Unknown2011-05-26 18:17:48
Mostly, in my opinion, Hallifax and Gaudi get raided because:
A.) They're flags of convenience, used by more powerful orgs as a place for their conflicts that presents no real risk to themselves, at the smaller city's detriment. This means that -large scale- raids occur there with far greater frequency due to their proxy nature.
B.) Gaudiguch has no fighters worth mentioning beyond the recent addition of Veyrzhul, Hallifax suffers from a similar lack of skilled fighters. This means that until the larger cities they're client-states of show up to defend against a large scale raid, it's pretty much a massacre.
I may be wrong, but those are my two primary observations.
A.) They're flags of convenience, used by more powerful orgs as a place for their conflicts that presents no real risk to themselves, at the smaller city's detriment. This means that -large scale- raids occur there with far greater frequency due to their proxy nature.
B.) Gaudiguch has no fighters worth mentioning beyond the recent addition of Veyrzhul, Hallifax suffers from a similar lack of skilled fighters. This means that until the larger cities they're client-states of show up to defend against a large scale raid, it's pretty much a massacre.
I may be wrong, but those are my two primary observations.
Ixion2011-06-09 13:43:09
QUOTE (Ixion @ May 23 2011, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's frustrating, I planned to time a run later. That's double my solo run time previously.. it should be doable without hitting corpse decay. I hope the xp boost makes it still worth the time.
Muud verdict is in. It's possible to clear all of Muud natives (only doing boils spawns that pop out) and even a couple globules in under 60 minutes even without battle beast.
Sadly, the xp and essence offerings are not enough to substantiate regular runs there. There are better places in the long run without insanity pestering.
