It's called a bug fix.

Not really -shrug-

Report #119 Skillset: Night Skill: Choke
Guild: (None) Status: Approved Jan 2009
Problem: We have given the envoys six months to address issues regarding choke. Since we have not
yet received any ideas that were satisfactory or truly addressed the issues, we are looking on
implementing our own ideas but are leaving it up as a report for the envoys to comment on.

Solution #1: It would be a swirling shadow miasma around the room so it wouldn't affect anyone
inside it. Any enemies who enter the room would be hit by blackout and aeon. Any enemies who leave
the room would also be hit by aeon and blackout plus a 50% chance of ending back in the choked room.
Solution #2: Change to a targetted skill that chokes an opponent (giving the same uncurable aeon-
type effect but not a separate ailment). **This only chokes the target, NOT the caster.** There is
no defense and no cure. The choke lasts for ten seconds or until the opponent or caster leaves the
room, whichever comes first.
Solution #3: Change so Choke acts as an uncurable aeon affliction. **This chokes BOTH target and
caster.** Can have multiple targets per caster. Lasts until one and a half minutes expires, the
caster and target are separated for at least a half second, or the caster dies.

Furies' Decision:
Solution #3 to work in the following manner - caster and target will see the source/target of the
choke, but the room will only see that a choke has been cast.

Which does not say it was intended to target multiple people. Indeed, every god present was like, "Wait, what, they can choke multiple people?"

However, it's extremely afar of topic, still. So let's pull back to the topic (which is griefing).

What do you mean it doesn't say that? What part of 'can have multiple targets per caster' means it wasn't intended to hit multiple people with it?

Right here!

The matter, however, is pretty simple (and the content of the report irrelevant). It was decided the manner it was working in was not a manner the Powers That Be thought it should be working in. So it changed. Certainly not bound by whatever opinion players put into envoy reports regarding design decisions.

So, about griefing...

I don't mind the change, when I first realized that we could multi-choke, I instantly thought, 'lets see how fast this gets nerfed' but nothing in the part you quoted states that it wasn't an intended feature when the change went through.

You have now said that is was deemed too powerful and changed which is really what I was going for, just confirmation that it was indeed not a bug, but just something that was changed because it was considered too much

Apparently, choke's ability to choke any thread and derail it is still able to afflict multiple threads. Fix please!

Hence past tense in my part, but my argument is no less valid. It's still less effective to bash rocs than it is kephera.

Removing enemy territory death penalty from npcs does make it safer to leave protected areas: there's less to loose, which means less frustration on the victim and less reward to the griefer.

Sorry... you'll need to envoy that TOO.

I just got about 400k essence bashing kephera as a human with no harmony, all 9 hives, Add in some sharks and mantas and that'll go up so it isn't difficult to replace the essence loss from one death there at all, plus you're a stealth monk with a great curing system, it's not hard to escape a gank if you really want to.

Griefing is fun, just expect what you dish out. Pretty simple.

Although hardcore organization grief can be difficult to deal with when you have a low active player-base, it is part of the game and nothing that has been done has been permanent.

It's also completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

How is removing or lessening one of the incentives for griefing unrelated to griefing? Estarra herself said that one of the elements of griefing is making it so that people don't want to leave the city. The last time I -left- the city was 5/2/2011 excluding the two times in the past few days that I decided to join in some fighting.

At this point in time, most of my time logged in is afking just to keep up voting weight.



How long did it take you to hunt it? I never said it was impossible to make up for the essence loss, but stated that the time it takes to make up for one is a factor. I would bash slower than you and cannot tank as many, especially now that their health is higher. Additionally, not everyone has the system I do nor is a stealth monk that can veil. Hell, I consider having to escape a type of griefing because it stops gold and essence gaining.

I'll bump the essence up to 500k per run, which assumes that -no one- else has bashed them. That's 5 runs to make up for one death there if you have more than 20mil, and before the mob change, a full run would take me at least 45 minutes, probably longer, as I never timed it. I'll be gracious and say that a gank takes 5 minutes. So in 5 minutes, I'll lose 3 hours and 45 minutes of essence bashing.

Because there is an entire thread devoted to precisely the topic you desire to argue about.

Doesn't mean that it's irrelevant.

About 45mins, I didn't actually time it but I finish with 10-15mins left before I get kirigami refresh, and the beauty of lusternia is you can escape most things if you're paying attention and reacting, sometimes you do get nailed with badluck or an unavoidable death but I just feel that's the risk you take for bashing in enemied areas, high risk, high reward.

Hmm, sorry I'm late, I don't really read the forums anymore but this thread was recommended. Didn't get to read through the whole thing, hope I didn't miss anything too important! First, thanks to Estarra for asking us about this. I don't know if the problem has gotten worse or better overall but there are some specific things I've noticed and I do think it is a problem.

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I too would like to see the Grace of Innocence cap raised, at least to level 30, maybe to 40 or 50.

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The idea of honour gain only when the victim is within a certain percentage of the killer's might is a start, but I'd like to point out that might doesn't necessarily dictate pk status or ability. Skills can be used for a lot of other things, like bashing, trades, aethercraft, influence, etc. Aubrey, for example, is a total non-com who couldn't fight her way out of a wet paper bag and doesn't go into enemy territory or do anything to merit getting attacked, and she's half the might of omnitrans people. Just to put it in perspective.

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I understand the argument that off-prime is supposed to be "risky," but on the other hand we all know it's not fair for an artied-out omnitrans ascendant to kill a level 34 non-com who is minding their own business. The problem I see with off-prime places is primarily a matter of necessity. Ethereal is a good example of a "necessary" plane, for well-known reasons. It's silly to tell people "just don't go off plane." Likewise you can't just take a defense crew with you everywhere you go because frankly "big" people often have other things to do, they can't play bodyguard to lowbies all day, and they shouldn't have to.

Less necessary places are mostly aether bubbles. There's hunting, influencing, and questing to be done there, but there's generally no real reason a person must go there. So while there's still risk, and still incentive to go there, non-coms can avoid it without it noticeably affecting their gameplay. I think one mechanical option to consider is extending Avenger to Ethereal and Elemental, perhaps even Astral (because it's the only place sparkleberry grows, plus there's danger enough with the strong NPCs there, without having to look over your shoulder for griefers all the time too). And then planes with no highly compelling reason to visit can be a free-for-all for combatants. Some might say, "But that takes the fun out of jumping non-coms, the very point of jumping someone is that it interferes with whatever they're trying to do." Well, that's the definition of griefing, in my book; killing solely for the enjoyment of making someone else's gameplay less fun. Maybe this idea is what "sandbox" refers to? I saw that in a post or two...

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Yep! This is a great example of why the "it's your fault for choosing a pk org" argument doesn't hold up. We all know it's very hard to be a rogue in Lusternia, especially if you are completely new and don't have lots of money to spend. You also don't have the protection of running home to safety or calling for help on CT, and pkers don't give you much slack just because you're rogue. Personally I find Serenwilde's (intended) RP to be most suited to me, that's why I chose that org and have stuck with it despite plenty of trials. Like Lilian said, a lot of us want to "be left alone," do other things, not be dropping everything to run to defense every couple minutes. No org is immune from pk, so telling someone it's their fault for choosing the wrong org is silly. Even Gaudi newbies minding their own business get jumped, as someone pointed out, and Gaudi's got the laid-back RP and not much in the way of pkers, and they still get jumped for no reason.

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As for "eating deaths"... Getting griefed is about more than exp loss. It's about being kept from being able to accomplish other things in the game, like questing or exploring or harvesting or rp; for some classes it's about having to put power-intensive defenses back up; it's demoralizing; it's frustrating and annoying and sometimes time-consuming; and yes it's also about the exp, especially since gaining the exp back requires you to leave your home and thus often get jumped again. It's harder to regain exp as a non-com. And when people get demi, they have to hide until they get a "buffer" because they know they'll be hunted as soon as certain people notice. I saw it happen with several Serenwilders, even a non-com one. And the reason for that is purely for the pleasure of seeing the victim drop down to 2/3 through Titan.

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Yes! - with the conditions that you haven't attacked anyone that weave and that the grace will drop in enemy territory (but it should still work in neutral areas off prime). Only problem I see with this is that a lot of abilities are considered attacks even when they're not meant as such. For example someone's starving and got disconnected so you pooka them to eat, that's considered an attack. I can see that being a problem for this idea, but I do like the idea a LOT.

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Everyone plays IRE games for different reasons, and what I think makes them so appealing is that they offer so many options. You can pk, you can rp, you can design things, you can explore, you can bash, you can even just hang out and socialize. The key to player happiness is having the choice, though. No one can force you to attend guild rituals if you don't care for heavy RP. No one can force you to become a designer instead of an alchemist if you're not creative. No one can force you to bash if you prefer to influence. But they can force pk on you anytime, anyplace, and you either have to participate, die over and over, or abandon whatever non-com thing you're trying to accomplish. So yes, having a flag of some sort would help.

Plus I've heard pkers complain of not being able to get out of pk once they started, even for a "day off." This grace thing might allow that. We all need a break sometimes!

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I've seen that happening a lot lately, and IC attempts to change it have backfired completely. When players try to help and just get told "shut up and stop telling me what to do," then yeah, I think people are going to look to the admins for help. Trying to solve the problem on our own is obviously not working.

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Oh and I've gotta say, to the Gloms who take a moment to speak with Seren young'uns on Faethorn and teach them how to debate and such, rather than just slaughtering them in one hit, thank you. That's still inter-org conflict but done in a respectable way that is more likely to make new players want to stick around. I wish more people did it that way.

1. I am most certainly not a fan of extending Avenger on Ethereal, Elemental, Cosmic, or Astral - it should stay on Prime only. The four higher planes see the greatest PK in Lusternia. While some people want to be "left alone", there are also people who want to fight. And fight they do on off-Prime planes.

2. Serenwilde and other "leave me alone" organizations don't always stay that way. Two years ago Glomdoring was the bashing ground, and Serenwilde was the one wielding the PK hammer. It's not about organization RP; ultimately, the players decide where the organization goes. Serenwilde is already seeing a new generation of fighters. They're already starting to fight back. I'm sure, sometime in the future, you'll be the ones doing the epic raids and Glomdoring will be the one on the bottom of the food chain (again!).

3. In line with the above point, and I'm really trying not to point the "you did it first!" finger here: even Serenwilde has its players who are focused on PK. Even Glomdoring has its people who are focused on RP. I don't think it's really fair to stereotype whole orgs into PK or RP or whatever as you seem to be doing. With that said, even the big bad scary Glomdoring gets griefed from time-to-time.

4. Losing Demigod brings you back to 3/4 Titan. With things like exp boosts and aetherhunting and astral bashing, it's not hard to retake. Trust me on this one here.

5. PK is PK. While we do have awesome stuff for RP like designing and writing and plays (seriously, though, hats off to whoever came up with Lusternia's arts mechanics, as they are very awesome), most of the mechanics of Lusternia is geared towards PK. Have vitae give a minute-long grace, that's it, and have it up when you're out and exploring and if any mean person kills you, at least you have a greater chance to escape back into the safety of your home. You can even bring combatant friends with you when you come out again. PK in Lusternia is all about groups.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood. I never meant to imply that Serenwilde was a "non pk org" or anything. My point was that there are people there who don't want to pk, just like there are in every org. So the person who said "choose a non pk org" was being silly, as it seems you agree. There are no "non pk orgs." That's why I think people should get some flexibility in how they play no matter the org they chose. Hope that makes more sense.



They fight the people who want to be left alone too, though. That's the whole point of this, that's griefing (in my definition anyway, I guess people will vary on how they define it). The idea is to let people want to fight be able to fight and the people who don't can avoid it. Like I said, not sure if my ideas are the best ones but obviously there are a number of people who want to see it addressed somehow, and rather than just complain I'm trying to come up with some suggestions.

Unfortunately, PK is part of the game. A big part, too, at that. Faethorn will always be contested grounds between Serenwilde and Glomdoring, be that through debating and influencing or through direct physical occupation. Harvesting essence from Water will always carry with it the risk that an opportunistic PK-er lies waiting to 'poke the piñata'. Serenwilde will want the Daughters of Night dead, and vice versa. That's Lusternia.