Has this happened recently? We have tweaked guards in the past where this sort of thing has come up. If it is happening again, I have no problem beefing up the guards if that's true. (Of course, I'm talking about individuals being able to wipe out guards. If it's a group of determined players, that's a different story!)

Case and point: Seren villages. There have been months where certain individuals have gone in and taken out every guard in Serenwilde-controlled villages multiple times weekly, and gotten out before any actual resistance could be formed and moved to the village in question.

Estarra: This has not happened in a couple months to my knowledge, but I have not exactly been paying attention either. If it has happened recently, somebody else might know, but the last occurance I know of is in February. EDIT: And it was groups, as I had mentioned in the post (I hope I didn't leave that part out).

I'm suggesting that if Support receives numerous complaints about a person, then they should be looked into. I'm not convinced at all that mechanics will resolve the issue. People don't grief because the mechanics let them. They grief because that's what they do, and they will find a way to make the mechanics do it no matter what the mechanics are. If you always rely on mechanics to stop griefing, you will always be one step behind. I wish I knew how to make certain players less toxic, but I don't.

It seems that removing the Planar part of collegium quests would solve a good deal of valid complaints about griefing. ie, remove all requirements to step out off Prime...

... but then again, honours quests are still griefable on Prime as well.

Yeah, no. No individual can take out a guard cluster that is standing guard, and if you have more than 40 guards in a room they are left alone. Divinefire drops when you swing, so you're just confusing "we left a group of 10-20 guards in the village and they all died" (which is pretty well expected if a group of 6+ Demis goes after them) with mass guard slaughter everywhere.

Remember, we recently tweaked mobs which included the guards!

40 guards is definitely an exaggeration. 20 guards is difficult, but possible with a reasonably sized group.

And I'll be thinking on mechanical ways to avoid griefing, but yes, I agree that any pick up in it recently is likely due to blood house honour gain (if you can look at the kills in neutral areas, especially Faethorn/Astral, I expect you'll find most of them are by Blood House members farming points with ganks).

How do you define organizational conflict by these terms... ?

Since I got Titan I've been essentially confined to Glomdoring, because if I so much as step onto astral/elemental/faethorn/various other places, I almost always get jumped pretty quickly - even with a gem. As it happens I've gotten quite good at running away but I'm also definitely avoiding going out because of this.

To an extent I don't mind this - I agree with Estarra that off-prime should be dangerous. Additionally I am an active combatant so I am happy to think that I 'deserve' it, as it were - or at least certainly I can't complain from an RP perspective (e.g. last month I killed your avatars so it entirely makes sense that you'd kill me whilst I'm hunting astral etc). There -are- ways to shield yourself from it like gems and aethersight and having ways of escaping quickly like orgbixes or similar. It definitely does irritate me that I have to be so cautious, but at the same time I kind of enjoy it. For me the only real issue is where non-combatants get jumped or where someone is being killed so many times by the same person that it's getting towards harassment. I agree with the idea that lvl 20 is too easy to get and that maybe innocence should be extended until lvl 30 (I believe that's where you become ranked anyway and most people in my experience tend to not kill the unranked anyway).

Perhaps it would be best looked at in terms of - what could these "griefers" be doing instead. For example, what if they were encouraged towards raiding rather than jumping people. The current issue with that is that it seems to be getting harder and harder to raid - certainly since coming back I've found that as soon as area defences like distort/shrine powers/flux/stun, we all have to bail because we just can't fight in it. I really do think this leads to more individual/small-group jumping because combatants want a way to fight but are stopped from viably raiding in other ways.

I think there are a few other issues tied into this, not limited to envoy reports and overall issues with raiding/similar. I don't know whether it is better to look at them from an all-encompassing POV or to consider comparatively individual incidents of griefing.

Ok this is petty but I can't help it. Vadi if I could put cash on the barrel for a cloaking gem today, I would write that check to Estarra with a smile and be done with it. I can't. Telling me the only way to play is to get a cloaking gem because of the org I chose is again, going to dissuade new players.

As to the mechanics, I think it does come down to a skill situation as many people with more experience than me have said. I know I have never minded it when I have been attacked one on one, had a good fight that shows I am improving and die. It's happened. Thats fun.

What is *not* fun is getting jumped by four people who execute skills that make it so I can't escape, can't fight and die, then to be told "Oh yeah theres no way out of that combo. Sorry Don, they just had you cold."

Theres no development there. There's no chance for me to improve or chance for me to do anything better. There is only "Hai you die now."

It wouldn't even be that bad if it happened once in a while, but this is 2/3rds of the time I get killed, easily. And I have no aspirations on being a top teir comatant. But it would be nice to be able to play the character I envision without feeling like the guy in Sojiro's Forum Sig.

In the end its the attitude. There are people saying "I like that I can kill you without you stopping me" and there are other people saying "Hey eventually this will get frustrating..maybe we need to tone it down." I agree subjectivity is bad, so maybe we need to take a look at the mechanics that make it possible to dominate someone who has been working constantly to gain experience.

Nothing is more frustrating than being told "You did everything right, kid. There's no way to survive that."

Does anyone have suggestions to tweak how House of Blood works to avoid that incentive?

I don't like this idea. I think what we have right now works. I know what it's like to get jumped constantly. You deal with it and move on. Also, definitely room for metagaming with that. Lots and lots of room.

Make it so you can only get blood "wonton killing" honour gain from killing people at or around your might (and above of course). That stops people from targetting people less able to defend themselves just so they can farm for honour. Doesn't fix everything, but it cuts out a lot of it.

... except for "There's nothing you can do, that person is invulnerable and can never be killed, no matter what they are doing / have done / will be doing. They just spent 30 minutes chopping trees and killing NPCs in your organization? They're still there? Sorry, there's no disincentive for them to do that because they can get away no matter what!"

If there's no way to lock a person down, that's what you're going to see more of.

My first thought is to just drop the honour gains for ganking people, and tweak their other benefits/maluses to compensate. We just really shouldn't be giving people that incentive to be jumping whoever they can.

While I don't really play anymore, I was told to view this thread when I was, indeed, myself a griefer:

One, Lusternia has a ton of anti-grief mechanics in it already. The most notable of these being Avenger. When you go off Prime, there is ALWAYS a risk that you run in being attacked whether it is your org's plane or not. The game is conflict based, and conflict is going to happen. If you eat a death, it's not really that big a deal with how easy it to recoup lost experience, especially with stuff like Conglutinate out there.

If people are griefing newbies, then that's a problem. However, if people are off prime? There's always a risk that you're running when someone attacks you. High risk, high reward. Pretty sure that's how it is now and how it should remain.

I don't understand how Glomdoring's warriors have anything to do with that, really, checking REPORT 556 fails to show anything to support that point. It seems that you do seem to find ways to co-relate complaints about lotsa things and then chuck them to one person/org, case in point:this discussion here, aside from the side-comment above, but I digress.

P.S.

That attitude/habit/etc. might actually be one reason why a lot of people are on to you whenever you come out.

Since we are already pointing fingers, please allow me to clarify something. House of blood incentives has nothing to do with it. You could make it so that House of blood's bonus is not losing honor due to PK and that wouldn't stop people. People not in House of Blood still PK and lose honor.

To summarize, the family honor system isn't the problem in my opinion.

Lehki's solution to extend Grace of Innocence is your mechanic. I'd go as far to extend it to level 50.



Raiding is just too hard today.

Every elemental plane can be defended by one command: NEXUS FLUX. Literally, raid over.

Cosmic can be defended by Ripple, Gravity, Distort. That will end a raid 90% of the time from my experience. Currently, it's up to 100% from my own raids. That's not even including invasion.

Ethereal is the same but replace ripple with lifeforest.

All discretionaries are free. Even if they aren't, 400 power is very little when VA's cost literal millions to raise. This means that the cost is trivial enough that people can throw it up all the time to PK raids as opposed to raiding Cosmic Lords/Avatars/etc.

Enemy territory: 2 million essence deaths combined with reduced rate of essence gain. Essence per mob has been buffed recently, but essence per second gain is lower than what it used to be.

The "Griefing" alternative has nearly none of these.

Which people have found ways around. Adding more won't solve anything.

And I don't consider "eating a death" here and there to be griefing. It's the people who know that they can't leave their Prime org territory because people know they are easy targets and get attacked more than once a RL day for no reason.

EDIT: Raiding was curbed because it was too easy and was itself being used as a griefing mechanic. Maybe those could be relaxed a little.

(Clan): X says, "Hey, that Lilian chick who is so anti-Glom on the forums is out of prime Seren. We should go gank her for her OOC attitude!"

Great form there.