Enyalida2012-05-17 08:41:42
Well...
1st ) It would make it so that you are not in fact playing against another person, but against the server. There is already some of that currently with how systems work, but even systems cannot possibly know exactly what hits you and when... but the server can and does know! Even the cleverest of systems now cannot perfectly catch everything, that's where the other player catches on the slipup and kills/wins. If server side curing is made perfect, it would invalidate many strategies, some of which classes are absolutely based around. Perfect server side curing would ignore masked affs, as the server knows what they are, same for shrouded affs. If you're talking about truly perfect curing, it's fairly obvious that its problematic.
2nd ) Assuming that truly perfect isn't what's being talked about (admittedly a safe assumption), there are problems if it's better than is ever possible with client side curing. At that point, you're throwing the illusion of player activity out the window. Right now, anyone who plays the game with any large degree of seriousness automates or semi-automates at least some of their activities. But as far as the server is concerned, they might actually be typing that fast or have aliases for everything and have quick reflexes/clever gagging to allow them to keep up. Once you've got server side automation going to fast/good that there is literally no room for improvement (semi-perfect), you make it so that the player has no chance to do things on their own, and no chance to improve things (provided the will and the savvy), which is a good way to make things stale/feel boring. Not to mention it kinda makes things unfair. In theory the philosophy of combat here is: "You have to catch your opponent in a mistake." If the opponent or their system makes no mistakes, what does that mean for combat? The way things are balanced, some classes cannot mechanically just outpace their opponents, without that capacity to make mistakes or be tricked, those classes would lose their viability.
I'm all for making functional server-side curing, provided it doesn't diagnose for you, and has simulated standard latency times associated with it, which is what it sounds like is in the works. I'd even be mostly okay with a basic stance/Perry-ier. Taking all of the defense functions of a good system and making them work automatically server-side I'm not so okay with.
1st ) It would make it so that you are not in fact playing against another person, but against the server. There is already some of that currently with how systems work, but even systems cannot possibly know exactly what hits you and when... but the server can and does know! Even the cleverest of systems now cannot perfectly catch everything, that's where the other player catches on the slipup and kills/wins. If server side curing is made perfect, it would invalidate many strategies, some of which classes are absolutely based around. Perfect server side curing would ignore masked affs, as the server knows what they are, same for shrouded affs. If you're talking about truly perfect curing, it's fairly obvious that its problematic.
2nd ) Assuming that truly perfect isn't what's being talked about (admittedly a safe assumption), there are problems if it's better than is ever possible with client side curing. At that point, you're throwing the illusion of player activity out the window. Right now, anyone who plays the game with any large degree of seriousness automates or semi-automates at least some of their activities. But as far as the server is concerned, they might actually be typing that fast or have aliases for everything and have quick reflexes/clever gagging to allow them to keep up. Once you've got server side automation going to fast/good that there is literally no room for improvement (semi-perfect), you make it so that the player has no chance to do things on their own, and no chance to improve things (provided the will and the savvy), which is a good way to make things stale/feel boring. Not to mention it kinda makes things unfair. In theory the philosophy of combat here is: "You have to catch your opponent in a mistake." If the opponent or their system makes no mistakes, what does that mean for combat? The way things are balanced, some classes cannot mechanically just outpace their opponents, without that capacity to make mistakes or be tricked, those classes would lose their viability.
I'm all for making functional server-side curing, provided it doesn't diagnose for you, and has simulated standard latency times associated with it, which is what it sounds like is in the works. I'd even be mostly okay with a basic stance/Perry-ier. Taking all of the defense functions of a good system and making them work automatically server-side I'm not so okay with.
Daganev2012-05-17 10:01:59
Point 1 I think is a strawman. Obviously the autocuring will not cure masked afflictions until it registers it in diagnose, and obviously the autocuring would only work when a client side system can work. The autocuring would not be made better than client side curing is capable of doing.
But Iosai, said that steps were being made to make sure it was worse than client side curing. I think there should be no reason to make it worse. The only thing it should worry about, is that illusions and masked afflictions are still useful things to do.
As far as making a mistake goes... it goes both ways. You can argue that until now, the game and combat was really only accessible to people with perfect internet connections, and the slightest bit of lag, not even a mistake, but just lag, would mean who wins the fight. Putting things on the server side, makes the game more accessible to people who know they get minor lag issues. More importantly, the mistakes come from their offense, and from not webbing or tumbling when they should, or not using the right equipment. There are many variables of error. Sipping vials and eating herbs on time, is the least likely error anyone with a system is going to make.
Many situations in healing require the user makes a judgement call. Do I want to sip health on every balance in blackout, or do I want to sip mana/ego? Do I want to use diagnose, or just sip allheale, or do I want to just wait it out? These sort of judgment calls, I think should NOT be made by the auto curing, because realistically they can't be. But I also don't think that keeping those judgement calls excluded is the same as purposefully adding a lag or handicap to server side curing.
It really sounds like a problem of cheeses being moved, and people wanting to think that having the right friends who can sell you the right system is better for the gaming community than having these work as skills in the game.
Question, because though I was assured from people in game, I want to be certain. Is there any chance that the tae'dae spec for cavaliers will be changed or altered in any way because of balance issues? Or was this fully fleshed out and compared and recognized as on par with all the other specs and races?
But Iosai, said that steps were being made to make sure it was worse than client side curing. I think there should be no reason to make it worse. The only thing it should worry about, is that illusions and masked afflictions are still useful things to do.
As far as making a mistake goes... it goes both ways. You can argue that until now, the game and combat was really only accessible to people with perfect internet connections, and the slightest bit of lag, not even a mistake, but just lag, would mean who wins the fight. Putting things on the server side, makes the game more accessible to people who know they get minor lag issues. More importantly, the mistakes come from their offense, and from not webbing or tumbling when they should, or not using the right equipment. There are many variables of error. Sipping vials and eating herbs on time, is the least likely error anyone with a system is going to make.
Many situations in healing require the user makes a judgement call. Do I want to sip health on every balance in blackout, or do I want to sip mana/ego? Do I want to use diagnose, or just sip allheale, or do I want to just wait it out? These sort of judgment calls, I think should NOT be made by the auto curing, because realistically they can't be. But I also don't think that keeping those judgement calls excluded is the same as purposefully adding a lag or handicap to server side curing.
It really sounds like a problem of cheeses being moved, and people wanting to think that having the right friends who can sell you the right system is better for the gaming community than having these work as skills in the game.
Question, because though I was assured from people in game, I want to be certain. Is there any chance that the tae'dae spec for cavaliers will be changed or altered in any way because of balance issues? Or was this fully fleshed out and compared and recognized as on par with all the other specs and races?
Ssaliss2012-05-17 13:37:40
Regarding illusions, it's pretty unlikely that the autocurer would be bothered by them the way they are now, since it would require it to check the illusioned text against all known affliction lines (i.e. extremely expensive, time-wise), instead of just checking afflictions it knows it gets (i.e. the ones that spawn aff-messages).
Shamarah2012-05-17 20:54:41
It offers the following defences:
Physical cutting: 24
Physical blunt: 21
It is not being used to its maximum potential.
It is in perfect condition.
There are no poisons or magical effects on a large frost-rimed shield.
What is this and why is it reducing the stats of my shield?
Physical cutting: 24
Physical blunt: 21
It is not being used to its maximum potential.
It is in perfect condition.
There are no poisons or magical effects on a large frost-rimed shield.
What is this and why is it reducing the stats of my shield?
Iosai2012-05-17 21:03:55
Great Shields can only be wielded effectively by warriors. Any other class wielding them will only receive approximately 60% of their max protection.
Unknown2012-05-17 21:04:39
Does a Great Rune of Iron Will do anything for aetherwill?
Shamarah2012-05-17 21:13:05
Iosai:
Great Shields can only be wielded effectively by warriors. Any other class wielding them will only receive approximately 60% of their max protection.
Oh ok, thanks. Is this documented anywhere? It should probably be in HELP SHIELDS, which... doesn't actually say anything about shields.
What's the most effective shield for a non-warrior, then?
Iosai2012-05-17 21:15:08
Yes, it gives the same benefit it does for standard willpower regeneration.
Iosai2012-05-17 21:19:10
Shamarah:
Oh ok, thanks. Is this documented anywhere? It should probably be in HELP SHIELDS, which... doesn't actually say anything about shields.
What's the most effective shield for a non-warrior, then?
I've updated the help file for you. The most effective shield for non-warriors should still be the Great Shield.
Unknown2012-05-17 21:29:11
Iosai:
I've updated the help file for you. The most effective shield for non-warriors should still be theGreat Shield.Shield Rune
Fixed that for you.
OK I FIXED MY TYPO ARE YOU HAPPY NOW :P
Enyalida2012-05-17 21:33:47
Why would a warrior ever wield a shield? I'm still mystified by this.
Rivius2012-05-17 21:35:30
That's true. There's no need for it, and I would rather it stay that way.
Enyalida2012-05-17 21:44:12
Using a shield totally handicaps a warrior! 2handers can't use their weapon at all, 1handers go in at 50% effectiveness?
Xenthos2012-05-17 21:46:44
Enyalida:
Why would a warrior ever wield a shield? I'm still mystified by this.
We should be able to attach shield runes to bardiches. It makes perfect sense!
Xiel2012-05-17 22:42:00
I'm guessing a shield + weapon spec for warriors in the future.
You have learned the following abilities in Gladiator:
GreatShield Mastery over the powerful great shields.
BashFace Swing your mighty shield to blind your foes.
-bashface Xenbear left-
You have learned the following abilities in Gladiator:
GreatShield Mastery over the powerful great shields.
BashFace Swing your mighty shield to blind your foes.
-bashface Xenbear left-
Turnus2012-05-17 23:01:02
A warrior spamming shield stun plus an attack would be interesting even if not terribly effective.
Rivius2012-05-17 23:49:15
Sounds terribly irritating to me.
Daganev2012-05-18 12:07:44
Turnus:
A warrior spamming shield stun plus an attack would be interesting even if not terribly effective.
I remember when this was a favored tactic of blademasters with pin leg, or impale I think.
Kiradawea2012-05-18 12:43:46
Zarquan:
Computationally, curing all afflictions is considerably more expensive than a simple sipper, especially if you're going to bring priorities and proper checks into it. :P
Somebody should make a half decent, free combat system...
Ideally something distributed through Nexus and/or the Flash Client, then people can fight on Lusternia while pretending to do work at the school library.
Kiradawea2012-05-18 20:21:39
Your movements are herbally heightened.
What's this?