Powerful how, does it work on everyone and has often does it tick?

P.S. Since when does anyone from Hallifax/Mag/Serenwilde raid, I don't even remember being able to reality during a raid defense!

rika:

Don't think this was asked yet, but regarding Report 627, why do you feel Reality should be the sole exception to distort stopping magical transport, giving how powerful it is, especially in stopping raids?

Because there's no other effect like reality and its hardly a guaranty. Some things are unique.

Sojiro:

Powerful how, does it work on everyone and has often does it tick?

It's most powerful in stopping smob raids, though any raid at all can be stopped pretty easily by it. Someone just has to go into the room where the group is gathered, reality and their group has pretty much been scattered all over. Since it is distorted, they can't quickly get back to their group without moving through the plane. Put the possibility of shrine or meld effects on top of this, and a small group of defenders can easily take out a much larger group, because they are no longer a large group.

Yeah... I feel that 'unique' should not equal 'unparalleled', skills can have their own unique mechanics without having an ability that nothing else in the game approaches, or one that contradicts some rule that all other skills obey. I really don't see any issues developing from making reality (the ultimate Smob defense skill? Dunno) respect distort like everything else. The random room in the area bit mixed with flinging people off plane is quite enough uniqueness for my tastes.

Wasn't there a huge and universal outcry when it was confirmed that it bypasss distort, even from those that were using it for that purpose minutes earlier (like Iytha)?

So what's the difference between that and squalling/scissoring/etc, radding, wisping, and so on under distort, which the defenders can now do given some of the recent announces. Reality doesn't even work against everyone all the time, neither does it even tick with any reliability. Plus, the whole 'can kick out allies' thing.

Oh hey Estarra responded, cool beans.

P.S. It doesn't contradict the rule that all skills obey when you take into account raid defense. Currently, defenders can use their separation skills and the raiders cannot. How is reality different from other magical movement skills when taken in the context of a raid defense?

Sojiro:

So what's the difference between that and squalling/scissoring/etc, radding, wisping, and so on under distort, which the defenders can now do given some of the recent announces. Reality doesn't even work against everyone all the time, neither does it even tick with any reliability. Plus, the whole 'can kick out allies' thing.

Oh hey Estarra responded, cool beans.

Come on, I'm sure you don't need me to explain what the difference between being forced to move one room and being forced to move to a random spot in an enemy area is.

How many times do I have to say that it doesn't even do that with any form of reliability.

I bet you any amount of credits that nerfing reality and then asking for some compensation will be met with a 'wtfno' from envoys on the other side, including you, who has repeatedly stated on recent reports (chaosaura, pyromancer burn discern, claws, etc) that x change isn't unnecessary without even giving any believable rationale for it.

I assure you, I've used reality way more than anyone in this thread so far and for every moment where it saves me, I can point to another moment where it has also quite painfully and irrevocably screwed me.

Sojiro:

So what's the difference between that and squalling/scissoring/etc, radding, wisping, and so on under distort, which the defenders can now do given some of the recent announces. Reality doesn't even work against everyone all the time, neither does it even tick with any reliability. Plus, the whole 'can kick out allies' thing.

Oh hey Estarra responded, cool beans.

P.S. It doesn't contradict the rule that all skills obey when you take into account raid defense. Currently, defenders can use their separation skills and the raiders cannot. How is reality different from other magical movement skills when taken in the context of a raid defense?

Uh, only , Planar Teleport, Planar Summon, Tarot Empress, andCelestialism/Nihilism Beckon work through distort. So all of that... yeah.

I'm with Rika about the separation vs. SEPARATION thing also.

EDIT: Also, were you not there on Envoys when we talked about it before? Everyone thought it was a bug, and when it came back as not one, there were firm words said to the effect of "It SHOULD be a bug and fixed" from everyone.

Just because a skill isn't 100% reliable doesn't make it any less powerful. In fact, because it can be so potentially powerful, it is a -good- thing that it cannot be used 100% reliably in every situation, or we wouldn't have wanted to only nerf the distort-reality aspect of. Skills like this require the caster to make a judgement call on whether it is worth the risk. Unfortunately with distort not being respected by the skill, it is more often than not worth the risk when defending.

<6863/6863h 7401/7461m 7391/7461e 10p 100%w |ex|dkr|Guardian >-
A loud humming vibrates throughout the Prime Material Plane.
<6863/6863h 7404/7461m 7388/7461e 10p 99%w |ex|dkr|Guardian >-(+3 Mana, -3 Ego) ql
The Portals of Glomdoring.
The shadowy outline of a twisted forest casts a dark gloom here. There is an aetherways portal here.
You see a single exit leading out.
<6863/6863h 7404/7461m 7388/7461e 10p 99%w |ex|dkr|Guardian >-survey
You discern:
You are standing in Glomdoring Forest. (Enemy Territory)
Your environment conforms to that of wyrden woods.
You are within the continent of the Basin of Life.
You are in the Prime Material Plane.
<6863/6863h 7345/7461m 7311/7461e 10p 99%w |ex|dkr|Guardian >-(-59 Mana, -77 Ego)
Sidd spreads his black wings and flaps madly, creating a foul windy squall that whips around him.
You resist the attempt to move you.
<6863/6863h 7461/7461m 7461/7461e 10p 100%w |ex|dkr|Guardian >-(+116 Mana, +150 Ego)
A loud humming vibrates throughout Glomdoring Forest.
<6863/6863h 7410/7461m 7332/7461e 10p 99%w |ex|dkr|Guardian >-(-51 Mana, -129 Ego)
Sidd spreads his black wings and flaps madly, creating a foul windy squall that whips around him.
The foul wind picks you up and hurls you to the out.
Rising passage.
The shadowy outline of a twisted forest casts a dark gloom here.
You see exits leading east, northwest, and in.

Hey look, defenders can use magical separation skills through distort.

The question is whether reality is any more powerful than simply spamming squall/scissor/whirlwind under gravity, skills which are way, way, way more reliable than reality when it comes to movement/group separation.

I say no.

Sojiro:

So what's the difference between that and squalling/scissoring/etc, radding, wisping, and so on under distort, which the defenders can now do given some of the recent announces. Reality doesn't even work against everyone all the time, neither does it even tick with any reliability. Plus, the whole 'can kick out allies' thing.

Also note, Reality doesn't work on prime plane, a HUGE difference from other skills.

Yep. God I wished I could use reality when we broke into the SG guildhall to fling myself to safety :(

Sojiro:

Yep. God I wished I could use reality when we broke into the SG guildhall to fling myself to safety :(

me too :( instead we got permanently stuck and to the point where we literally couldn't defend ourselves anymore without invoking Vengeance (and the peace effect afterwards).

Good thing the majority of the big fights where reality would really matter happens on the prime plane. Oh wait, when was the last time we had a big fight that actually mattered on the prime plane? Like a year ago during some open PK area release?

That part is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

You guys complain that reality makes raiding (as the guys on the offense) difficult because of its ability to separate your group.

I argue that it's not any more special than squalling/radding/whirlwinding/scissoring/etc (which I've shown above can be done in distort) the raiders under gravity and then breaking up the super huge group anyway.

I've been part of way too many smob raids and have actually experienced that a small group has triumphed over the superior group simply because the small group spammed said separation skills (like say,...whirlwind or raise cudgel) and let the demonlord/avatar have their way with them.

So again, I'm confident in saying that reality isn't any better than those skills given its unreliability.

However, the difference between being moved one room in distort and being moved across an entire area (or even off-plane) are considerable. The thing that makes reality so powerful in distort is that a coordinated group can't just move one step and have everyone be back in the same room within a second. When you reality, you are sprinkling the group randomly across the entire area, something which without magical movement will take a good deal of time to correct, even in a group that is good at communicating.

Anyway, you wanted to know the reason and I gave it to you. Never said you'd like the reason! The bottom line is I am comfortable with Reality being unique insofar as distort is concerned and you probably won't change my mind arguing about it here. If you want to tweak the chance of Reality moving players, that's something that you can have envoys discuss and if a report is submitted (especially by a Guadiguch guild) asking for that, we'd be open to considering it.

If you want to argue over it more, maybe this isn't the best place (if you want this thread to be for clarifying envoy reports).

Report 611, about using Moon Light to disperse shadows.

Was it rejected because you don't feel the need for Light specifically to disperse shadows, or because you think shadows should be un-dispersable under any conditions? Also, when you say the ego regeneration is adequate, do you mean that the skill as a whole is likely to be unchanged if future reports are targetted at it? I have a handful of Light-related report suggestions I threw at Raeri once which might again see the light of day if I ever find a sympathetic envoy or become one myself.

Distort was changed so that forced movement abilities, magical or not, can be used by the defending side and not the offensive. I can wisp you through distort in Ethereal Glomdoring. Revan can gust me in Nil through distort. Etc. etc. Why you are still continuing to push for a Reality nerf on the grounds that it hurts your offensive raiding escapes me.

Sojiro:

Yep. God I wished I could use reality when we broke into the SG guildhall to fling myself to safety :(

You knew it was bad when even both sides cooperating TOGETHER couldn't figure out how to get you out.