Imagine taking 25 people into a room with Gwyllgi and 1 guy walks in and uses reality, your group might have just been destroyed, the larger the group the more potent it becomes.

What is the concern with monks? Remember if its envoyable they will tell us no, and we were rejected on both a generic monk report, as well as a guild specific ones I believe.

There are two things I think would be helpful.. and it is an either/or idea. Either

1) Maintain a combat envoy for when report discussions are going on in the event of low commenting. If the admin would consider a change but disliked the solutions this envoy (or an admin) could request further options to allow progress where it would otherwise be rejected.

or

2) Allow envoys short discussion periods with an admin to discuss ideas before submission so their problem is more concise and they can find out ahead of time if it would be too codey, complex, etc. This could even be done mechanically perhaps along the lines of ENVOY REQUEST . as I believe each Head divine has their own area, and the non-heads can still be very helpful for discussion and to speak to.

My only really big issue with monks after the last revamp is that they're warriors who don't suck.

Edit: And yeah, Malarious hit the nail on the head with reality really. Most heavy group fights end up with two sides entrenched at key strategic points, waiting for the other to make a mistake. One person with reality can run in and drop it, and now their opposition can no longer hold that strategic point. Reality lets one individual do what an entire group cannot, utterly shatter the defensive position of a large entrenched force.

This is very subjective, I still see warriors who can pretty much wipe up people faster than I can. People hated I could tendon, took me like 12s or so to get there, a warrior can do it on first hit. This still sounds like warrior mechanics more than relation to monk. And assume there will never be a "cripple this class intentionally" report. Hehe

Actually, you know what I'd prefer?

If for every rejected submission, the envoy who submitted the report had a chance to amend his report (reasonable ones) within 1-3 RL days, just so it's not wasted, taken into account the admin feedback given. I know the feeling of wasting a report, so this would help the process overall, IMO.

My question is simple... as a trans tatts monk... what warrior? And if you say Ixion, I'm going to nerdrage all over you complete with splattering brain matter from my head asploding.


And yes, that was the point of my comment. Monks are fine, dare I say pretty balanced for the most part compared to some other things out there right now. It's just that... everything warriors can do, monks can do better. Monks can do anything better than them. (Except tracking down manifestations of the drea... owait, nevermind. )

I suppose my lack of issue with reality might be sort of biased from my perspective so maybe I can see where someone without scent-and-go and moonbeam might have an issue with it (oh and gravity/distort or whatever). But as I said, easily addressed by the current envoy system if need be found.

Also, re:monks, I can't give specific advice, especially now, and I refrain from putting my mouth in it too much since I don't have a true grasp of how they work besides what's written on paper. But I can say that it certainly feels at times like they're able to do their nastier stuff a little bit too quickly, and the rate at which regen afflictions can be cranked out is a little much sometimes. Also, I don't like that there are some guilds (see: tahtetso) that are balanced around preapply. Though this is my personal opinion, and who knows, maybe I'm just all wrong about them. I was just chippin' on perceived major issues.

Although, I think you might be right about it being a warrior thing. I definitely hear this enough and do see instances of other classes being capable of taking them on much better.



+1

I would love if envoys had a chance to adjust, and perhaps hear why it was rejected (although reports have gotten alot clearer on why) so they know if its because the problem was not felt a real problem or if their solutions were bad or what. Sometimes the second option is very different from the intended solution (see for instance where a skill in nihilism that could give like 3/4 affs ended up creating Jinx in hexes).




Oh I did not say on me, I said faster than me. Nekotai are a direct counter to all warriors, on top of the base defenses we also gain auto shrug on first venom, improved shrug from them on, and proning if we get a stance off. Also, because I like asploding brain matter, IXION. Ixion is a real good example though, he fights the omnitank class (reseacher) and gets over 30,000 total wounds on him!

Question I'd like to get clarified if possible: will non-combat things be addressed here? I know xp loss was mentioned, but I personally don't think that's an issue, but other non-combat things I do care about, like trades and unfinished projects and whatnot.

Of course, if it's purely combat-related things, I think the suggestion someone made (I forgot who) to make shrine effects only affect the rooms actually sanctified rather than the whole area is an interesting concept to minimize its effects while still retaining a shrine's uniqueness in Lusternia as compared to say, Achaea and its boring worldburn. I also think that the capacity to offer one room and move on to the next to keep one shrine's effects up is also curious (instead of having to fully sanc a room before being able to move to a next one), but I've yet to review that in depth yet.

Edit: Addressing failed envoy reports and the monk/warrior dynamic are nice too, though the latter bits are probably gonna be a whole other concept that might not be able to be addressed with a straightforward suggested solution as Estarra is requesting. The envoy report bit should be doable though, I think.

Pretty much. Malarious's 12s before he can tendon is a pipedream for most warriors whose names don't start with Ixio-. Yes, against splendors/tatts you -might- get it on two consecutive assaults, if you stack in a puissance. But once they've stood, you're pretty much outta tendons for a while, and right back where you started. Once monks are 12s in they can tendon... and just keep tendoning.

And Ixion is a mutant freak and an affront to nature. He's a mechanized menance that people have been using as an excuse to point at and say 'see, warriors don't need fixing', when in fact they do. The real issue is that everyone needs a hard nerfing skill reduction against anyone whose name starts with the letters Ixio- ... Bah! *GRUMPS*

(Then again I'm the sorry sap who can have 10K wounds on someone's head and spend 5 more minutes trying to get off the bloody decap. The RNG utterly loathes me. Which is part of what pisses me off so much about the monk = +warrior issue. Their involvement with the RNG is far more minimal, and they have a sort of reliability that makes the sorry sap of a warrior trying to manage to land tendons weep in despair when they see the monk next door doing it while dodging, doing somersaults, and occasionally backflips ], just to rub in their smug superiority in every aspect of melee combat)

Also, same researcher in question didn't use to use any sort of stance/parrying logic to deal with a warrior offense, and iirc correctly (this is when he and Morbo were doing their shindigs, right?) Morb didn't have splendours. I could be wrong, but I think that may be playing a huge part in those numbers.

Actually, making it so shrine influenced rooms need to be fully sanced before their effect kicks in (and only fade once the room is fully diminished) stops the one sanc and go technique.

How will improving warriors would help the currently losing orgs fates? Everyone gets warriors...

I wont run on the thread of warrior versus monk for much longer, although people can still 1 shot tendon me. My short answer is to have this reviewed as I do not think anyone is arguing the looking over it all.

Viy, if its a "major issue" we can look at it, and as I imagine some tradesman may have "major issues" that are not combat we could certainly bring them up no?

@Vadi: We will lose less warriors as they get irritated! I am sure you have a whole list of warriors who have left Lusty, or after a time out just changed guilds. More people means more combatants which means more equality (with some measure of flaw).

That'd be an important thing to keep in mind then. Less class-specific things and more general things that apply to everyone in regards to this endeavor, yes? So shrines, envoy reports, the imaginary lag and such?

Edit: @Malarious: Who defines what is major though? A lot of those who've talked so far are combat heavy folk and are probably more prone to paying attention to problems of that nature rather than the one or two people who bring up the non-combat tangent. Rather than clutter up the thread with unrelated non-combat stuff, getting the aims of the endeavor clarified would be grand.

That's.... not the point of this at all. This isn't a direct continuation of 'State of Lusternia'

It isn't imaginary!

And yes I assumed less class specific things, as most class specific things... say it with me... fall under envoy reports, which is a no go.

This is not a combat balancing report.

EDIT: -at this time-

Poor Ushaara... He is -the- Sentinel's guild.

Pretty sure when the term 'envoy reports' is used, it's not in regards to contents of specific reports, but of the envoy process in general. Ie. how rejected reports are dealt with, or the surprise solution four, perhaps. Not sure - it's someone else's goal to bring that up rather than my own.

- The Lag. It's not me. It's you.

- Orderwars are incomplete. The challenges don't wear off, so you can just put off accepting until the odds heavily favor you (domoths have the same problem), which presents a risk neither side is willing to take. Since no one is obliged to accept, they're simply not used. Realm layouts can lead to inherent imbalances (Eventru's realm is a good example - the mobs cluster in groups of 20+ nearish the entrance - more creatures than many gods even have period, in 1 room. Fainland has similar spots where 8+ maggots tend to clump.) Variable size alone leads to imbalance in the amount of 'points' you can score against the other side in a given time period. The system would need a lot more to be workable... and it still won't be used, because who's going to willingly risk their god's essence? Or else, if you are obliged to accept challenges, people will be pretty mad if they're issued at inopportune times (which they would be). We could just do without this. Save the code to be adapted for another mechanic some time.

- Shrines and aggressive shrine powers should definitely cost more than they do. Powers should require fully sanctified rooms to be activated (though not deactivated). At present, you can raise a shrine, do 1 sanctify in each of 15 surrounding rooms, and call gravity, distort, and invasion that enemies would have to wade through to reach the ends to defile. This has never felt like 'working as intended,' to me, it is a big leverage that can appear in less than 2 minutes.

- The way uncontested revolts (and maybe flares too) go is probably too fast. I worry that big adjustments will make it too slow, but at present, it's too fast.

Would modifying the envoying process itself count? -points upward at Xiel's earlier post and adds his own 2bits-

Explicit responses to envoy reports: If deemed not a problem, the reason that the mentioned reasons for the belief that there is are incorrect. If solutions are insufficient, why they are. If modifications to a solution are more palatable, have them mentioned (but not made unless one of the proposed solutions is revised to match, because a lot of these 'fourth solutions' come outta the blue and hurt everyone who's -not- the problem while doing nothing to fix the problem).

Then allow a re-filing of the modified report, with adjustments in light of feedback.

The whole point is the need for clear lines of communication between admins and envoys, so it no longer seems like throwing things blindly into a black box and seeing what might randomly pop back out.

Some other things brought up:

-Affinity, while I can understand the motivation this kills some peoples RP and punishes them for having ideas that are not "in the box". I would prefer this be removed.

-Domoths, while this has been looked at before I would like to see adjustments to absolving, or outright removing it. As is since everyone can show up if the "weak" side gets a domoth the strong side can pick when they want to make it no longer exist, which just ruins the work.

-Village revolts, make these NOT take 2 minutes please? Village feelings can play a part but make each influence worth less and village feelings just give you a base bonus in points for controlling the village?


Um do people want me to start carrying a copy of all the problems listed over so we can keep track of them for ease of use later?