Being able to change to supernumerary doesn't save you if you never notice it was selected as ephemeral to begin with.

Oh, right, I missed that update.

If druids are being looked at then I think you may want to wait a few on dreamweaving Li. Since touching any tertiary changes another guild the likelihood would seem to be that stag/crow or druidry gets the changes. But as these skills are already rather populated, perhaps we do plan to change tertiaries? We can balance the new problems we forsee.

Yay for Aegis for Mal (can we get divine manna now ). I also like the idea of expanding weight, but I would rather see like 100/125/150 so we dont have a huge disparity of 50 between a group still. If a power is considered too strong in some cases we can always have a "minor" version of it. Like to prevent fearaura all over make it half the tic rate for demigods or something. I would happily take a weightless justice though

I also agree with more noncom powers. Still wish we had a way to self ascend by expanding our divine spark, through eating peoples energies or something maybe.

Warriors I can see whole worlds of topics on, is the issue RNG? Wounding? What? While this may be nauseating, if people do fine with the current system improving accuracy 33% would make it seem almost easy. Warriors are the life blood of credit purchases, I do not see the stat and rune system being overly changed because we neither want Beta level warriors (damage was also wounding), nor do we want similar scaling. Warriors are just a bear to code because they have to not be OP at +30 to all stats but at the same time people want them viable at 0 runes.

More things for Demi would be nice, whether that is opening up powers a bit more, adding new ones, or whatever.

This would make some domoths MUCH better then others to win by. I think we went through the list, and the only domoth with more then one really solid power in it was death.

I have several things to say about dreamweaving (one of which being that sleepmist is not the issue, it's slower then most people imagine), though I agree with Malarious that while dreamweaving/runes need looking at to bring them up to par with TP/TK, it's not the way to go for helping druids.

He's talking about Ascension, not holding a Domoth. As in, the True Ascendant of Nature (i.e. Viynain) gets all three Nature-powers for free.

...?

As Ssaliss said, this already happens. Esano got all 3 Chaos powers, Sojiro got all 3 Death, Soll got all 3 Life, Xiel got all 3 Nature, and Ceren got all 3 War. Automatically, no essence or weight spent.

I am suggesting opening up the field a bit to Seal winners, to nowhere near the same degree (consumes essence for all 3 on purchase and only 1 is un-weighted); thus, True Ascendants still have complete superiority when it comes to their tie to that Domoth, but a much larger segment of the populace has the ability to utilize the powers.

It's 9 new people a year who get to purchase these powers (plus all the Demigods who have already won over the last few years!). Definitely widens the field, and fits within the roleplay of the Domothean realms to boot.

Right, that's what I was talking about.. I wasn't aware it was like that already, and it looked like he was suggesting that as something new, which muddled things more.

Shu, are you looking create an exhaustive all of the problems, or using the open forum to generate a topic pool with enough depth for a quality selection process? With the ten topics at hand (see here), I'm wondering how long until a forum vote or in-game referendum to pick the first topic.

I'm on board with the Demigod idea. The skill selection is really limited for someone who looks at practical things and is dissapointing. I feel that allowing Demigods access to Ascendant powers (some of whom are hogging that position, while being mostly dormant, by the way - was this intended? it's not a good thing for the orgs affected) would solve the problem, because Demigods are limited by weight.

I'm not quite there yet, and this may or may not be a radical idea, but what about making it so that once you reach demi, you... can't lose that level, but instead just go down whatever percentage the exp is or to 0% if you were on the cusp and work your essence/exp what have you back up? From what I've heard/observed it's a grueling process as is and fragile new demis have to scramble and or hide until its safe to go out and get exp/essence. Or for lack of a better term/reference- the time when Daraius just got Demi only to die and be set back again. Doesn't seem much of an incentive to gain Demi to me... but again, that's just my perception, I could be horribly wrong.




(the only reason I'd try for demi would be for the tradeskill and maybe that nifty entry message.. though I've heard that's nigh unobtainable in costs, at least for nomcomms, yes there's aetherbashing but I lack the speedy system required to go beyond siphoning since I'm an old fashioned manual kind of person and even then that scares potential crewmembers as being too risky sometimes)

I used to manual empath pre-slivvens. Still think that going manual on turrets is possible, though logs of repetitive button mashing. In fact, a manual pilot is probably preferable for a dragon hunt. Outside of manual controls, if you can code a siphon trigger, you could probably also trigger turret commands.

Once you get past an initial cushion amount of XP, losing demi is mostly due to carelessness. If you can grind to demi, you can grind to buffer.

People should keep these things in mind. There are countless little annoyances in any game, the report is for the big things.


I know there are plenty of people out there who want it to be said, but don't want to deal with being the one who says it. So I’ll go ahead and bite. I'll even spare the beating around the bush and come out swinging.

NIGHT CHOKE IN GROUP FIGHTS:

It has existed for a reasonably long amount of time. Yep. Even if only counting it's more recent major incarnation, yep.

It is generally acknowledged, if not agreed, by players from most/all player orgs to be an issue. This is so true that it is treated as a cliche on the forums.

It has the potential to discourage people from playing/supporting Lusternia. Can, has, and does. See body of post. See PM quote at end.

It has the potential to prevent new players from joining/staying in Lusternia. This isn't quite as true as the first three.

The disclaimer first- I'm not saying this to wreck Shadow Dancers or Nerf Glom. The assumption here is that any inequitable loss would be justly compensated. (Equitable losses, naturally, should not be.)

In terms of group combat at least, Night Choke needs to die forever. Not slightly altered, not re-invented with the same (or WORSE) results. The core of the thing is so fundamentally flawed for group combat that there's no way to tame the beast. This has been re-hashed over and over again, but it has been a persistent, if not malignant, issue for a very long time. There are people who, when having moved to, or when scouting out other IRE games, when reporting their experiences? One of the first things I've heard several say is "It's great! There's no choke in !"

Here's a PM I received in response to a post in a different thread. I've altered some names and trollbait.

QUOTE

Just wanted to say that this was a very good post and I agree. Envoys is broken and even those who appear impartial merely put up a very good front. That would include Wayne and the acclaimed Garth: who rarely push for the necessary downgrades for their own classes. I finally got Wayne to agree that needs a looksee and he'll put up a report. As far as choke, I have argued with both Bill and Ted and neither of them agree that any change is required, that brume is incredibly strong, gloomtide and other yummy abilities that allow a small org/group to dominate in group combat situations. Ackleberry has no such synergy. Choke is a game-breaker. When you see players like Jules and Vincent throw their hands up, and Jules was op in his own right, you know it's a lose-lose situation and I know why they hate fighting Glomdoring.

Even being on the 'winning' side, I realize how obnoxious and overpowered an ability it is. To where I want to contact support over Estarra's refusal to adjust it and the envoy system as a whole. To be blunt, the only fair-minded Envoys I've ever worked with, spoken to was Rufus.

Changing alliances will only soothe hurt feelings for a short time. How many times do we have to change alliances IC to realize that's not the answer. Egregious group combat skills are the issue.

The ways to go about doing this fairly could fill its own thread. Replace it with aeon and rework some other SD skills. Yes it would be more like Moon, but at least it wouldn't be what it is now. Have ways to block it, or counter shadows, that are only practical in a group situation, or make it not function in an enemy's demesne. But it is an old infected wound that needs dealing with.


THE ORG MOMENTUM BOOGEYMAN

The proverbial elephant prodded out from behind the couch, I may as well force the gorilla out of from behind the futon. When one org, ANY org, essentially sits on the top of the pile and, for all intents and purposes, dictates winners and losers to the rest of the game? For real life years? A critical failure in the system has occurred, and needs to be addressed. Forget the "why would you punish winners?" mantra. That's empty rhetoric. We "punish winners" every day for a variety of valid reasons. Hell, any sort of progressive tax system INHERENTLY "punishes winners". It's not binary. It's not a light switch. It is a sliding scale, or a dimmer switch. If it's turned all the way in one direction, and if anyone so much as moves to touch it, "don't punish winners" is trotted out like the vengeful hand of a father with an iron grip on the electric bill.

You can punish winners! Chances are better than good that they won't quit over it! After all, they're winning! If you impose a 1% tax on businesses with a demonstratable market share greater than X%, the vast, vast majority of them aren't going to pick up and move shop to the next country over. They won't LIKE it, but duh. In game, the "winners" are already much more likely to be having a good time than the persons' collective necks they are standing on! The trick is to do it in a marginal way. You're probably getting greater returns in net game enjoyment from "protecting the losers" than you're losing from the winners who are "being punished".

If you have to acknowledge "don't punish winners!" as a valid message, you must also then take in to account the equally empty counterpoint of "don't drive losers out of the game!"

But neither are valid. They're just protest-party mob signs. You can ease the pressure on down orgs. Pulling a winning org off the smouldering wreck of their opposition in a meaningful way isn't "punishing". It's preserving the game for both sides.

There is plenty of room for imaginative options here too. Provide incentives for people to move to losing orgs. Put restraints on the ascendant system such that ascendants (who, usually tend to be valuable players) are more likely to spread the heck out. Provide disincentives to try and own everything in the basin at all times, or make things like village revolts more attainable for losing orgs.

Basically, when the term "win" for a losing org is "weren't slaughtered wholesale in their own territory one night, and instead were only butchered as soon as they stepped out of it" becomes the accepted definition in that context for years? It is a pretty good indication to me that there's some structual issue involved with game balance.

Achaea has room-wide choke and absolutely nobody whines about it.

(is it only that people without a system that can cure in choke whine about it?)

A couple of people have a bee in their bonnet, and some others feel like they shouldn't have to code a system to deal with it. That's pretty much how it feels these days.

Man, that is such a stupid statement to say.

People whined about retardation for years, not to mention its completely different here. There, it removes your vibes over a period of time, here ents keep going at the same speed and don't get removed from choke. The only reason why its complained is because it is an end all be all in team combat. And you can do it anywhere, as long as you put down shadows. To keep blatantly defending a skill that has been nerfed/downgraded in other games, but remains here, is just being clueless. If you want room-wide choke here, then have it remove your passive effects. But that won't happen. So choke will continue to be unbalanced.

Not only is it not room-wide, it can only affect 1 person at a time now (they removed multi-choke). Yes, it's completely different here... because it's been nerfed to heck.

It's just become a habit to keep bashing it!

I'm still in Achaea regularly and I don't see any mass-whining against it, so - show some proof. Achaea has more of an artefact problem, which doesn't seem to be existent here - which just illuminates the fact that people whine against whatever gathers momentum.

Retardation hasn't been touched in a long while in Achaea either. What are you talking about?

In case you have forgotten Vadi:

Report #419 Skillset: Night Skill: Choke
Guild: Ur'Guard Status: Approved Jul 2010
Problem: As much as everyone complained about roomwide choke, after months of the alternative, single target choke has proven to be an even greater evil. Single target choke in group combat is akin to playing hot potato with a small nuke: whether it's the caster or the target (more often than not the target, since the caster can decide when's best to choke), someone is going to nigh instantly die as entire groups dogpile someone with extremely limited curing and ability to act. Indeed, I feel the path that was taken with choke was not only a little shortsighted, but also more complicated than it needed to be.
Solution #1: Solution 1: Make choke roomwide once again, but with some strict limitations: anyone standing in a choked room receives a protection field that blocks demesne effects and loyal entities (fae, angels, demons, etc). Furthermore, if the choker leaves the room he choked, choke will drop in 2-3 seconds unless he returns.
Solution #2: Same as solution 1 except make ents tick 1.5 times slower and double the time for demesnes
Solution #3: Provide a solution here.
Player Comments:
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...? I'm not certain if you're entirely serious about this report considering the short-sightedness of the proposition in regards to the wiccan guild.
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Well... assuming it is a serious report, it would also mean a Shadowdancer can kick the stuffings out of a Druid even easier than they currently can with Brumetower. What would a druid have without a demesne or trees(sap)? A simpler solution along these lines would be to have choke be a room effect again, but like Octave instead of old roomchoke - making it affect everyone in the room equally, but cancel instantly upon caster movement?
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To clarify my comment above, I'm not saying that roomchoke is a good idea, but that the solution currently proposed could do with some refining.
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I too would like a return to room-wide choke sans the ability to use it in Supermob rooms. I don't see a need for there to be any other limit outside of that, since most room-wide effects hit on a 10 second cycle anyhow.
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As highly suspicious as the report might be after 4 or 5 preceding reports already, the doubt remains as to the seriousness of the proposition as it doesn't take into account the perspective of a Shadowdancer using the ability. Nonetheless, I don't believe that I can recall a skill that kills off an entire skillset of a class when it's supposed to supplement their offense either, and as systems have shown already, singular choke seems to be dealt with just fine in one on one combative situations. Until these most base issues are addressed, the report just seems to be some haphazard reaction to some recent group scuffle where the rules of affliction still remain worlds apart in balancing, since any other well-used hinder will inevitably kill the lone target against the group (read: forced off-equilibrium, stuns, pits, crucifies, etc.)
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"Single target choke in group combat is akin to playing hot potato with a small nuke."? Drop Brumetower, drop Choke, Hartstone is SOL. Drop Choke, kill Geomancer effects. I'm not entirely sure how this is a 'downgrade' myself. And, given that Choke is the Shadowdancer form of aeon, it kind of -needs- to work in combination with their fae somehow. Just like the other ent-classes with their versions of aeon.
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I don't think the idea is as outlandish as you make it sound. In other IRE games, retardation (choke) makes your passive vibes disappear. What if choke made the ents tick 1.5* slower (there are already bard songs that affect their rate, so this has got to be possible), and demesne effects twice as slow (from a coding perspective, an effect would give you a 'charge' for that effect, then the next time it hit it would do the actual effect. Basically it would tick every other hit). Lord knows active attacks suffer in choke; there should be some restraint on passives I think.
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I'm guessing you're also going to apply the same slow-down principle to bard songs hitting in choke as well. It's more palatable, but I still don't see the effects of choke dropping on movement, especially since we don't have perfectfifth to keep someone in the effect.
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We could and it's probably a good idea, though I don't see it as as big of an issue since they need to strip deaf for them to work. The reasoning behind the fade on movement is so you can't drop choke in important rooms (like domothean thrones) and bail. You need to be there to keep your choke active. Furthermore, it ensures you can only choke one room at a time.
6765h, 6600m, 5700e, 10p elrxk (xhspfwb) <18:50:57.661>
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If demesne ticks are going to slow to half-speed, I'd say just make it half-speed for fae too. Technically, effects of choke used to drop on movement anyway since the target would be out of the choked room with the tumble. Also agree with Fillin above on making sure you can't blanketly choke an area and run for it. Perhaps ought to ensure multiple people can't all choke the same room, too. (It also occurs to me that this might mean druids'll use thornlash more.)
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Going to need to ensure that elevation change doesn't drop the choke if room change does. Also, 2-3s before the choke drops in a room change isn't enough since moving out to chase and hopefully shove someone back into the choke will take more than 3s.
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Make it like carcer where you can only have 1 choked room. If yuo choke another your last room choked fades. Also drop the duration of room wide choke to about half.
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Or what if it stayed as the current targetted casting, and just have it affect everyone in the caster's room until caster/target separation(curing choke) occurs like it does now? That way you could still chase, and making it require a target would help stop camping a prechoked a room with hexes, etc. And if you choke an ally, it makes it easier to drop since there's now two people you can move to try to stop the choke. (Also, with a Shadowdancer's access to Brumetower, what elevation change could possibly be relevant?)
6765h, 6600m, 5700e, 10p elrxk (xhspfwb) <18:50:58.160>
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That's actually... very clever. I'd support that if it went with the passives mitigation as well.
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Very interesting, actually, Raeri. I'd like to retain the chasing mechanism, and the song/demesne/ent slowdown wouldn't be bad either.
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His worded of the problem is wrong and he did not research well what he was discussing. Still, solution 2 does not in anyway require him to have done full research on Temp Insanity, since solution 2 can easily stand on its own by making a simple statement of how it is more inline with how aeonics works, than the present effect of TimeWarp. So I support solution 2 because it makes sense, not because of what of the comparisons made between Temp Insanity and TimeWarp.
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Bah, hit the wrong number when posting what I have above. Ignore it please
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Oh, and to reiterate, without a better form of keeping someone in choke, having the room-version drop on caster movement won't work since people like to tumble. At least the current incarnation enables the possibility of good timing to keep it going through tumbles or somersaults, but if chasing were outright removed, the power cost will need to be reviewed.
Furies' Decision:
We will review Choke.





Whats the point of having Envoys, if you completely ignore their suggestions and come out with a solution 4? I think, that is why most people have 0 faith in Envoys, that, and they are choosen by Gods.

Feel free to post this report in the 'Envoy report clarifications' instead of starting the cycle of 'Envoys suck' which is being addressed elsewhere. This is offtopic.