If its been bashed against the wall for years, something is probably still wrong with it. Which is what we learned with Lichdom, and why we keep rehashing the same problems and keep arguing about the same things. There is obviously still a problem with it, if it is still being complained about.



Uh, there is a top end tier problem with combat here, which is what a lot of whining has been about. Very similar to an artifact problem.

There also used to be a ton of whining against retardation, since in Aetolia, it used to take away vibes very slowly. But, the whining in Achaea has no bearing on the whining here. There is obviously still whining about a skill, so there is obviously still something wrong with it. You'd think people would whine about anything, but people haven't whined about Lichdom in years. And, Lichdom took 3 years to get nerfed.

It isnt' off topic, the topic is choke. The envoys tried to solve it, as been shown. Offered a good idea, that most envoys were in agreement on.

If you want to really know off-topic, its talking about Retardation vibe in Achaea.

It is far more of an imbalancing mechanic in groups than mag's sip bonus ever will be. The fact that it has been complained about for so long is itself circumstantial evidence to the validity of the complaint. And it isn't just a few people. Whenever I make a post like that, I get pleasant little "atta girl" PMs from plenty of different people in different orgs who, frankly, can't be bothered to put up with inevitable argument on the forums.

Systems have nothing to do with this. I'm not even making a 1v1 argument, because anything 1v1 I feel is outside the scope of this thread. But honestly, I said in my disclaimer- replace it with something that justly compensates anyone who is deemed to have unfairly lost something.

If this were my thread, here is where I would go off on a tangent accusing you of not being interested in a "fair" compensation, that you'd rather keep the nuclear option of group combat. But, I'll say this now, that would not be a fair argument to make. Much like it isn't a fair argument, or even relevant, to pretend it is one or two people, or to marginalize the skill that has been the most malignant source of complaints easily, than any other one skill.

Your issue was the fact that the Admins decision was unsatisfactory and you were confused about it. That's what the other thread I pointed to is exactly about, not this thread, for admin resolutions on reports. The retardation was brought in because Akui has brought in other IRE games and this simiar effect in them.

The last two Ascension events were certainly not won by the sides with access to Choke, and they were most certainly the biggest group affairs possible, so logic should be saying that there's more to it. I'm all for however to mitigate all the mass whinging from Choke so it can be transferred to some other skill as it definitely will be - let's play the hot potato!

So it begins.

I've been out all day, I'll go over this thread in a few hours. Can we argue about choke on the very obviously will happen choke thread please

All you're doing, however, is exactly what I've said in numerous Envoy discussions with Estarra; the people complaining about it won't be happy until it is deleted entirely. All of the tweaks they do to it, all of the hearing complaints about it, nothing will change no matter what unless the skill is removed entirely.

They have opted not to do that.

I don't really see why they should. It's as simple as that, when you boil your argument down.

I do feel that it is just a complaint that people have stuck in their minds now and that is regurgitated on command, regardless of its actual impact (which has been greatly reduced). Every organization has powerful abilities, this one's no more devastating to groups than abilities accessible to others at this point.

To be fair, the only bit I mentioned about other IRE games was that people who have largely left to some of them without a choke mechanic rave about that aspect when they pop their heads back in to Lusty on occasion. I could care less about the retardation skill. I'm addressing the skill that has, for years, had more detractions, drama, and dissatisfaction surrounding it than easily any other skill. The last word in group skills, in a skillset already laden with some of the best group skills.

But as I've mentioned, I've no interest in debilitating shadow dancers. Worst case scenario, they can be reworked. Best case, we can find a method to take the obnoxiousness out of choke in a group setting without destabilizing shadowdancers in single combat scenarios.

Which means nothing, as this is a thread about major issues as we see them as players. Choke is, and has been the signature skill issue. This is the best opportunity to address the inequitiable problems the skill has brought to Lusternia.



Which means little. Fortunately, the administrative staff here aren't hide bound by precedent.



I didn't say that at all. In fact, I've framed the problem in terms of group combat, and taken lengths to explain that any change should result in just compensation for those impacted. Your sentence is just a hollow attempt to marginalize and dismiss the argument.



I strongly disagree. I see an ability that is far more absolute and prevailing than any of its contemporaries (IN TERMS OF GROUP COMBAT). The small group of people I see is just an extremely vocal minority of players who benefit from a consistently over the top ability.

I hope Estarra didn't listen to what you said, at all.

How dare you put words in our mouths, assume we won't be happy until its deleted? I am pretty sure all the comments in all the Envoy sections don't say anything about deleting choke, just nerfing it in team combat. Is this such a hard concept for you to understand? Or do you have to hang onto your own biasness when it comes to it? If something has been complained about for this long, there is probably something wrong with it. Most of us are reasonable adults that decide to play this game, we are not complaining for no reason, we are complaining because we have a legitimate gripe with a skill in a game, that gives Glomdoring an unfair advantage in team fights. You were once on the losing side Xenthos, you once had to argue against skills like Contagion/Lich/Ectoplasm, all had something legitimately wrong with the skill and needed changing, hence why they were bitched about for two years.

To try and claim that Choke is fine, and that the people bitching are only doing it to bitch is complete ignorance, and frankly, insulting. Does the old age adage about when you assume something needs to be repeated?

Thanks Xenthos, I am glad that we all have a diplomat like you to tell us our inner feelings and what we will or won't do in the future.

Someone make the Choke thread and mod move all the posts there, I guess, buttttt:
-Make the choke aeon on the target lessen slightly for every person in the room beyond two, but not lessen for the caster. In big group situations, that makes choke not a good idea, in small group or 1v1 situations, it leaves it intact. That more or less solves some of the problem.
-Or perhaps: Change to room-choke (like octave), that hits everyone, if it slowed or partially canceled passives (make demesnes tick down some multiple 9 or 11 at a time, so that they hit just as often, but lose steam far faster, or slow down demesnes and ents, or something) it could potentially be okay also.

The system thing in choke isn't being able to cure, it's that it literally becomes impossible to keep up with afflicting if there is more then the one shadowdancer (and perhaps a friend) hitting you. Cure as good as you can, you still will never outpace them, and generally die so fast it doesn't matter.

Choke is not my biggest problem with Night, but it is an issue that has been around for a looong time. The last report on it said it was being looked at and nothing functionally changed. Various suggested solutions would help.

EDIT: Organization fixing a little bit.

To quote "someone" in this very thread, just a few posts ago:

This is also, you will note, the person claiming to speak for a large and silent majority who agree with the opinions being rendered.

I don't need to put words in anyone's mouths when they are willing to speak the words themselves!

Choke is, at this point, a skill that can only affect the caster and the target. It cannot be cast on multiple people. In group combat, you can gust the person out and they're fine (which can and has been done). It's been reduced down pretty much as far as it can be.

I'm with Xenthos. By the way Silvanus, me and Sidd beat Veracruz and Ild- without any use of choke in a 2v2 on Nil. Maybe the solution is to give Choke to every org, just like melds?

I'm out!

Uh... thanks for proving my point:


Nothing to do about deleting the skill in general. It is about Choke giving Glomdoring an unfair advantage in group combat. Nothing about Shadowdancers being awesome.

That doesn't prove your point at all? The entire premise of that quote is that choke needs to die because of its effect on group combat.

That.. is what we are saying, and what has been said for the past four years about choke. Are you just now coming to this realization?

Akui was referencing group combat, it needing to die forever in group combat. I mention it as unfair advantage in team fights. Again, nothing to do with deleting the skill outright and making it unuseable for a Shadowdancer - in a one on one situation.

... which is why I am saying that the people complaining about it won't be happy until it's deleted.

Thank you for agreeing.

(PS: Any skill that can be used 1 on 1 can be used in groups)

Did... no one read my post? Make it so that you can use it in 1v1 with good effect, and just make its effectiveness go way down against groups (like trample?).

Seriously, stop it. Look, all of you mentioned '1v1' and 'group' and 'choke', therefore my prototype solution is the correct one. THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT, GUISE.

There seems to be an awful lot of vitriol from a very limited subset of players whenever Choke is brought up.

I would ask both sides in this to back off and refrain from hashing this out on this thread, and perhaps on the forums in general.

THAT SAID: When this much bad blood surrounds a skill it NEEDS to be looked at, if only to address the concerns of both sides. I recommend it be added for EXAMINATION, not necessarily nerfing or deletion.

PS: Any skill that can be used 1 on 1 has a very different effect on group combat. Examples?

Contagion
Ectoplasm (10p for room? 1p for personal? Look at that, a skill that was balanced around group combat)
Unleash Staff
Boulderblast/hailstorm
Squall (Oh look, another skill balanced around group combat)
Whirlwind
Scissor
Reality

I can go on? Skills are supposed to be different, supposed to have different uses and effects.

And again, the only complaint is choke in group combat. Not in 1v1.

Ah, but their silence is an artifical situation. One created by a small minority browbeating most people in to frustrated silence with pedantics and misleading quotes. Honestly Xen, you should get paid for this sort of thing, if you don't already. Have you ever considered a career as a radio political commentator?

Yep, I sure said that bit about Night Choke dying forever. Now, if you weren't busy cherry-picking the quote out of context, you'd have also had to post that I took great pains to explain doing so would come with just compensation. And even with that said, I made it as an impact statement. The full meaning, which is clear when taken in full context of the post is, "I want night choke in group combat to cease to be as it is now, as I feel it is structurally unsalvagable in that scenario."

But that's not nearly as attention grabbing as what I DID write! Fortunately, having made the original post, I can safely say that you either haven't bothered to read the rest (which, having seen you here for quite some time, I truly doubt), or, you've chosen to engage in miscontext, misreadings, and pedantics to skirt or marginalize the issue.

But, lets say hypothetically that I DID just want it strait deleted, period, nothing else changing or being taken in to account? That would be one person's opinion of a soultion, and would cast no shadow on the problem that is being outlined itself. So whether I do or do not come to my own conclusion on whether or not choke should "die", it is largely irrelevant to the overwhelming validity of there being a problem in the first place.