The most was 1.8k damage against Haiden, who was omened (sorry to ruin that fantasy guys!).

It is a one time thing. It takes me about 15 symbols on my fellow Lich to charge their eyeblast all the way.

That's our balance. One attack (that does worse then a geo's staff, admittedly 500 more then my symbol), that is only a one off thing, that takes 15 symbols to charge up. Or an obesefessor to hit you for 4 minutes.

I don't think eyeblast is lame but I wouldn't be adverse to reviewing it. Don't forget that it also ABSORBS excorable damage.

Yes. I don't think it needs explanation. Not every guild will have access to every damage type. (I also think 'single best damage type' is a bit dramatic. Mobs have different weaknesses and strengths. If you think a particular mob or mobs may have too great a weakness, that's something else to address.)

Which is what we are suggesting, but you just said they aren't meant to be equal! Every single high end bashing area has a weakness to Divinus damage but rseistance to Excorable damage. We are offering to balance things out here, but you said its not meant to be balanced.

Which one is it?

Eh? I don't understand what you think I'm suggesting. Damage types aren't meant to be equal. I don't believe every single high end bashing area has a weakness/resistant to divinus/excorable (though maybe the ones you are used to).

I'm saying that not every guild will have access to every damage type, certainly not excorable/divinus. Work it out from there.

What we are saying is that orgs/guilds that do have access to Divinus compared to orgs/guilds that have access to excorable got a far better deal out of things, to the point of not really being fair.

EDIT: And while "life isn't fair" (Which I contest), that's not a good way to do things on purpose.

Especially in this game here, where you offered to bring up a report to balance things.

Eyeblast + Excorable damaage <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Divinus damage.

You can look at the Denizen resistances here:

http://sites.google.com/site/xieltalnara/DenizenResistances

You won't find any with a weakness to excorable damage (I guess Domoth beasts?), yet the three, high end bashing areas that is universally agreed on as being the three high end bashing areas (Astral, Catacombs, Muud) all have a moderate or terrible weakness to Divinus, while having resistances to Excorable damage.

Everyone can agree that those three are the top end of bashing areas, you can't get stronger then that.

Can someone kill some mobs in 5 hits instead of 6? If so, I have a hard time getting to worked up with how unfair that is. I cannot help but think that it's making a mountain out of a molehill.

But, again, I don't mean to shut down discussion, but I will just reiterate what I said before: not every guild is meant to get every damage type and suggest you work it out from there.

If you're interested in adjusting divinus/excorable weakness/resistance on specific mobs, then you need to get a list of every type of mob you think should be reviewed.

As I said, I'm open to reviewing eyeblast if it is too weak. I'm not open to giving every guild access to every damage type (not sure how many times I need to say this).

Astral, Muud, Catacombs. The high end bashing areas. Which I suggested, and those weaknesses do matter.

As has been said many times, we don't want that. We want balance around the top end, I don't know how many times this needs to be said. Divinus vs Excorable is not balanced. Period.

Ok, obviously, what I'm saying is not being heard and people are getting upset!

Carry on!

People are hearing what you are saying, and not agreeing that EYEBLAST and slight exco absorption is balancing versus Divinus, and no one has been able to tell any obvious increase in damage. It's more that no one is agreeing with you after hearing you.

EDIT: Well, except for Silvanus.
I don't think anyone is calling for everyone to get access to all types, we're more asking that for the types we get, they are balanced against each other when you consider the whole. On the whole, no one believes you that Excorable and Divinus are balanced. Call to either make some mobs vulnerable to Excorable or actually make Excorable have an increased level of damage to PvE, which no one has been able to tell exists, and admins explicitly said did not exist.


EDIT2: Hope this isn't missed. For istance, someone bashing Astral will bash at base 21% faster then someone totally identical doing Excorable damage. Same for Muud. Absorbing a small percentage of hp doesn't really make up for that. I'm not sure if eyeblast is pve either, no comment on that, I guess.

EDIT3: Eyeblast works on denizens after all, that's good. Voidblaster seems better for bashing, as it actually charges in the normal course of things.

5 hits vs 6 hits really matters. Over the course of a long bashing session, that noticeably adds up.

Sounds more likely a result of the players generally fighting against the soulless forces rather than along side them (even the tainted).

Solution, MOAR Areas?

A few very good points brought up. choke (which will get discussion elsewhere), damage types especially in bashing, and raid mech.

Choke (elsewhere)

Bashing: While I think people were unhappy with the "differences" in bashing between classes the creation of divinus damage has by and large weighed the bashing scales in favour of someone. Personally I still have a sour taste in my mouth that unlike most every other guild my artifacts wont let me adjust types, even between like say fire and cold or poison and magic. With that aside as I am not sure if thats within the scope of the problem at hand it is worth noting that as has been said the end game and high end bashing areas have a noticable weakness to divinus, sometimes incredibly high levels of weakness. A list was stated: everything in muud, everything on astral, everything in catacombs.. reduce weakness to divius to lvl 1 or 0, with lvl 2 on especially corrupt things, since divinus seems to mean "good guy beam" based on what it hits and who has it.

PREPOST EDIT: An envoy slot is up for the removed statement.

Raid Mech: Here is something that I wonder about what we could put in here. This has a few areas of its own.

• Planar geography: I would call this New city syndrome. With the nexus of hallifax having a smob over it (gogo mass dominate?) with aggro mobs, and vortex being the opposite and harder to defend.
• Planar guards: Continuum/Vortex mobs track fast and are known for being pains in the rear because of blackout, damage, and their overall power compared to the "original" cosmic mobs. Daughters and Ladies... known for being brutal as well. Especially when you see 11 of them in one room as they permanently are.
• Discretionaries: Liveforest is very very powerful on its own, add in any defense or guards and it becomes a nightmare fairly easily. Flux removes any real capacity to work in groups, and ripple is a crippling effect to have. With the advent of these not only being free but also generating power (the constructs that is) it seems time to tone these down to make raids more plausible, especially with distort not punishing raids exponentially.

Raid difficulty in order of hardest to easiest, I omit elementals as flux makes it pretty much impossible to do organized raiding, it devolves into mass skirmish:

1) EtherGlom - Some of the most powerful and dangerous mobs based on moon phased combined with an easy to control 1 room choke (haha I said choke), live forest, and the fact you have to pass a clot of guards to get there make this a fort.

2) EtherSeren - Similar to the above, but the smobs are more spread out so you do not have the same issue getting through a 1 room corridor and hitting a huge group of guards. Liveforest and ladies are still pretty brutal, and I am ignoring shrines in these.

3) Continuum - Tracking mobs with blackout and lots of smobs about, add in that you cannot camp near nexus due to smob and you have a decent formula for a safe haven at the main break point. This one may be subject to debate as it also only has ripple.

4) This one is harder, I give it to Celestia as harder to raid than Nil and Vortex because of its layout, allowing you to pick a direction and having a break point. Vortex would have been here but if you get a meld going it is a real pain in the rear for enemies to find the break point unless they have a thinker.

5) Nil wins, again because of ease of melding Vortex. Mobs here are equally weak, why do these cosmic mobs cost power again

6) Vortex is only the easiest to raid because of the meld thing, if we ignore that it has stronger guards than Nil and Celestia as well as lots of special exits.

Those are all my personal opinions based on raiding them and seeing what they can do. Daughters + wrath (which is part of shrines review) + Liveforest + forced walking through clot with an unbreakable meld make Glomdoring the epitome of plane defense. I am from Glomdoring and I can still admit it is a bear to raid, good luck if we gravity/distort as well.

Anyway just my thoughts on things at the moment.

Just to illustrate the example, let's assume a common balance time of 3 seconds per hit.

A: (5 x 3s) = 15s per kill
B: (6 x 3s) = 18s per kill

A: (60s / 15s) = 4 kills per minute
B: (60s / 18s) = 3 1/3 kills per minute

A: (4 * 60min) = 240 kills per hour
B: (3 1/3 * 60min) = 200 kills per hour


If you give each kill about 250g per, then:


A: (240 * 250g) = 60,000g per hour
B: (200 * 250g) = 50,000g per hour

That's a difference of 10k gold per hour, which is essentially 1 credit. Now, I didn't include critical hits in this, and the proper way to look at that would be based on how much damage the basic attack does rather than how many hits it takes to kill the mob. However, you can assume that the type A's attack deals more damage, which can lead to situations where a type A can kill a mob with a lesser critical hit than type B. My guess is that the numbers would show a larger disparity, and you have to remember, I stopped at one hour of bashing.

I would also like some data if anyone has it on the rewards of bashing vs influencing. Bashing can be faster in some cases and slower in others, I know people who can influence a kephera faster than I kill it, without the risk of all the other Kephera attacking and of course it using 0 cures. I am wondering if influencing is "too generous" as it has no real risks, uses no cures, and requires only 1 skillset to be effective, 2 if you want to specialize (as compared to bashing which needs damage reductions, utility skills, your primary needs trans to be properly utilized etc).

Basically: Is bashing and influencing equal? Does gold generated from areas from bashing equal the gains from influencing when you factor in esteem and risk? Or are we all stupid for bashing instead of going faeling and spam influencing?

I would also like to remention (since I have not seen it yet) an alteration to the envoy system so we can request clarification on an issue before reporting it. ENVOYREQUEST with the goal that you can get some thoughts on a slot before submitting to ensure its clear enough (any), not overly complicated (coders), RP/thematic (design/flavour), and sometimes just preconceived notions (any). Being able to speak to a divine first would clarify alot of minor issues, for instance the regeneration order change, or things that conflict with the flavour/intended design of something. My two sovereigns.

With that.. night night.. I is a tired Neko

Too bad we don'y have druids or shrine-activaters 24/7 to utilize EthGlom's awesomeness

You are ignoring critical hits when you say that influencing is superior to bashing. At the top levels, it simply isn't. I only influence for esteem - when I want gold or offerings, I bash. The influencer will always take his same 3-5 hits on the kephera you mentioned, whereas you can kill it in 1-2 hits fairly often due to your demi crit rate. Influencing is definitely a better option to bashing at certain times -the 80-90 level hump, for example, but overall, no. I agree that influencing has a much lower cost than bashing and this should be addressed. It is significantly less risky, which makes it more likely to be scripted, be that script moving around a given area and influencing everything encountered or simply standing in front of a stack of 30-50 guards, contributing to the overall easiness of influencing over bashing.

The difficulty is in balancing this across the board. The top level things (Maeve, Cthoglogg) are fine (some say too strong, admin has said WAI) as is, but the broad majority, ranging from Tosha, Guards, Kephera, Illithoid, Dwarves - is easy street, and I agree that both the costs and the difficulty could be upped.

It might be interesting for mobs to have a chance to team influence battles. So if you are influencing 1 of 4 kephera in a room, perhaps another could just start "Who are you anyway?"ing you, draining ego... similar to how it is if you switch influencing targets midstream. We'd also discussed adding in some kind of influencing afflictions - debate affs wouldn't do it, we'd need new afflictions that actually made your influencing less potent or have a chance to fail. (Herb cures grown on fire/air?)