Unknown2011-10-10 09:34:12
Okay, finally home, but I'm way too tired to do much editing, but I've noted down things on my sweet text file. I'll get to it in the morning.
Frankly though, I think some of you may be getting a little carried away with calling things that bug you a major imbalance, so please try and stick to my criteria of what constitutes as one, unless you have a better definition of it.
Frankly though, I think some of you may be getting a little carried away with calling things that bug you a major imbalance, so please try and stick to my criteria of what constitutes as one, unless you have a better definition of it.
Unknown2011-10-10 11:50:23
I'd like to suggest taking a look at village feelings more than the revolts themselves. There's a reason why 100% of player orgs have a benign government and 2/3rds have a conquest government. It's too difficult to get people into the seriously contested villages frequently enough to influence/do commodity quests for the village in question. You either have to unenemied to the org that owns the village (a status that will not last long if you get caught trying to raise village feelings) or strong enough to deal with statues/guards. Most of the playerbase meets neither qualification.
Proposed solution:
Each organization has the option to hire "agents" to assist in converting opposing villages. An agent is a denizen that appears in the village to be converted and costs power and gold to summon/upkeep like a guard does. The type of agent send depends on the political structure of the organization sending them. Religious government send preachers, commercial governments send merchants and conquest governments send soliders. Each organization, ideally, would get their own flavours of agents, so that Celest sends zealots as their soliders and Magnagora sends skeletal warriors.
The organization ruling the village can lessen an agent's effectiveness by dealing with it in an appropriate way. Agents send by religious government need to be influenced, agents send by commercial governments need to be given commodities and agents send by conquest governments need to be killed. Once an agent is removed, they're gone for good until the organization that send them sends more.
Note that this replaces the current methods for raising village feelings. Each organization can, and probably will send some agents to villages they already own and let them work largely uninterupted. Occasionally people from enemy orgs will sneak in and influence/kill them, but this will show up in the power logs when it happens. The ideal result here would be that each org faces intermittent but easily resolved (and therefore fun) conflicts in villages that have some real effect on the direction the village will go, rather than the current situation where people lock down villages and refuse entrance to anyone not in the same org/same alliance as the owners in order to keep people from raising feelings.
Proposed solution:
Each organization has the option to hire "agents" to assist in converting opposing villages. An agent is a denizen that appears in the village to be converted and costs power and gold to summon/upkeep like a guard does. The type of agent send depends on the political structure of the organization sending them. Religious government send preachers, commercial governments send merchants and conquest governments send soliders. Each organization, ideally, would get their own flavours of agents, so that Celest sends zealots as their soliders and Magnagora sends skeletal warriors.
The organization ruling the village can lessen an agent's effectiveness by dealing with it in an appropriate way. Agents send by religious government need to be influenced, agents send by commercial governments need to be given commodities and agents send by conquest governments need to be killed. Once an agent is removed, they're gone for good until the organization that send them sends more.
Note that this replaces the current methods for raising village feelings. Each organization can, and probably will send some agents to villages they already own and let them work largely uninterupted. Occasionally people from enemy orgs will sneak in and influence/kill them, but this will show up in the power logs when it happens. The ideal result here would be that each org faces intermittent but easily resolved (and therefore fun) conflicts in villages that have some real effect on the direction the village will go, rather than the current situation where people lock down villages and refuse entrance to anyone not in the same org/same alliance as the owners in order to keep people from raising feelings.
Xenthos2011-10-10 16:37:44
I really like that idea in general.
Main thing I see that I would want to see addressed is the following:
I, Xenthos, know that Glomdoring has millions upon millions of gold and oodles of power, so I don't care about these resources. Thus, I set up a trigger in my system.
Every 5 minutes I send one soldier to each village owned by Magnagora, Serenwilde, and Hallifax (or, maybe better yet, 1 random village owned by each).
For no real resources spent, I am forcing organizations to constantly patrol their villages or be over-run with partisans.
Main thing I see that I would want to see addressed is the following:
I, Xenthos, know that Glomdoring has millions upon millions of gold and oodles of power, so I don't care about these resources. Thus, I set up a trigger in my system.
Every 5 minutes I send one soldier to each village owned by Magnagora, Serenwilde, and Hallifax (or, maybe better yet, 1 random village owned by each).
For no real resources spent, I am forcing organizations to constantly patrol their villages or be over-run with partisans.
Unknown2011-10-10 18:23:49
Lilia:
I definitely think dreamweaving needs looked at. I have several ideas, but it's really difficult to accomplish through the normal envoy process. It would involve nerfing a few things and then hoping that the buffs make it through. That's not really an ideal way to do things, especially if you don't know before hand whether the admin see the same problems you do. It needs to be done with all proposed changes taken into consideration. I see dreamweaving as a longstanding issue because it has been pretty much ignored since its release due to its previously buggy nature. No one (other than Hartstone, or so I'm told) takes the skill seriously as a choice in combat, so it doesn't get any fixes to make it more viable.
I think Dreamweaving being terrible for x class isn't really major enough to be considered, so if anything, we can just put this under 'Druids vs. Mages'.
Ssaliss:
I'm not sure if this is within the intent of this report, but I feel Demigod is currently... a bit limited. I'm currently using 24 of my 50 weight, and that's because... well... nothing else seems that interesting for a non-com. Opening up the Domoth powers in a limited fashion would definitely resolve that; there are far more goodies out there for Ascendants to get, and since they get 150 (I think) weight, they'd still be special, even if Demis get to share their glory.
Yep, added demigods.
Rivius:
Obligatory mention needs to go to warriors whose several problems that have been, perhaps not around since their inception, but definitely for a number of years now. The high cost to be a viable warrior, the frequency that the several layers of RNG screws you over and the sheer lack of design updates to specs that had gotten nerfed over the years I think really deserves a good luck at. In fact, warriors might benefit from a good special report instead of gradual envoy improvements in my eyes.
I think there can be things done to make the RNG more fair, while keeping it intact and not skewing warriors to become overpowered. I also think general kill-method design should be looked at closely.
Yes, while it's true that some people have done well as warriors, they're usually the ones who have just about every little buff you could possibly imagine, and even still, fell far, far behind other classes than invested the same.
Yep. Added warriors.
Unknown2011-10-10 18:49:37
Janalon:
Shu, are you looking create an exhaustive all of the problems, or using the open forum to generate a topic pool with enough depth for a quality selection process? With the ten topics at hand (see here), I'm wondering how long until a forum vote or in-game referendum to pick the first topic.
Probably the latter, it's impossible to get a truly exhaustive list, but we sure can try. We now have more than ten topics, so I'm gonna have to start chopping or consolidating suggestions through talks with envoys, whoever talks to me, and my own discretion.
Rainydays:
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Oct 8 2011, 09:23 PM)
My Personal Interpretation of a Major Imbalance
1. It has existed for a reasonably long amount of time.
2. It is generally acknowledged, if not agreed, by players from most/all player orgs to be an issue.
3. It has the potential to discourage people from further playing/supporting Lusternia.
4. It has the potential to prevent new players from joining/staying in Lusternia.
People should keep these things in mind. There are countless little annoyances in any game, the report is for the big things.
Yes please.
foolofsound:
....MOVING ON.
I would like to see the Environment skill examined to make it more worthwhile. Currently there are only a few worthwhile skills in it, all before Expert (423 lessons), with the sole exception of Attunement.... which requires an additional 1300 lesson investment to obtain!
I don't feel that this will ever be addressed through envoys, since there is ALWAYS something more worthwhile to report on.
Yeah, I can see where environment is still kind of lackluster, but it's not very major as is, sorry.
Kiradawea:
Akui. You're cool and all, but bringing up Choke in this thread. Tsk tsk. Shame on you.
Anyway, suggestion for other big imbalance...
What about bashing/influencing? Nothing ever beats Faeling when it comes to influencing, as Charisma is everything. And in bashing, the differences between the health of a merian druid/mugwump guardian and surging igasho is pretty huge, and the difference only grows with blessings such as Tosha, which gives a percentage boost to base health. So when base health is larger, then the new max health is even larger. Sure, DMP figures into it as well, but Health has a lot to say about if you can survive Astral or NO WAY EVER.
Yeah sure, we can talk about bashing vs. influencing.
Ryleth:
Something that keeps me from returning to Lusternia, I know it's been brought up before.
XP loss on death is far too painful. I know it's been reduced, it still is awful. Don't punish players for playing the game. If I've spent 4 hours bashing (which frankly is pretty boring) I don't want all that work and more wiped thanks to a touch of lag, creature glut or simply a demigod with a chip on their shoulder. It's incredibly disheartening and frustrating. In terms of org participation, the threat of losing a big chunk of xp will certainly impact participation. Why go fight if you'll just lose what you've spent boring hours gaining?
I understand there need to be a barrier to stop no-holds bar raiding/tree felling/otherfun. You could look at other disincentives, such as stat reductions, or perhaps a lower level of maintenance needed from the defenders.
I'm personally in favour of keeping xp loss in enemy territory though.
I can add this too.
Malarious:
Bashing: While I think people were unhappy with the "differences" in bashing between classes the creation of divinus damage has by and large weighed the bashing scales in favour of someone. Personally I still have a sour taste in my mouth that unlike most every other guild my artifacts wont let me adjust types, even between like say fire and cold or poison and magic. With that aside as I am not sure if thats within the scope of the problem at hand it is worth noting that as has been said the end game and high end bashing areas have a noticable weakness to divinus, sometimes incredibly high levels of weakness. A list was stated: everything in muud, everything on astral, everything in catacombs.. reduce weakness to divius to lvl 1 or 0, with lvl 2 on especially corrupt things, since divinus seems to mean "good guy beam" based on what it hits and who has it.
Raid Mech: Here is something that I wonder about what we could put in here. This has a few areas of its own.
- Planar geography: I would call this New city syndrome. With the nexus of hallifax having a smob over it (gogo mass dominate?) with aggro mobs, and vortex being the opposite and harder to defend.
- Planar guards: Continuum/Vortex mobs track fast and are known for being pains in the rear because of blackout, damage, and their overall power compared to the "original" cosmic mobs. Daughters and Ladies... known for being brutal as well. Especially when you see 11 of them in one room as they permanently are.
- Discretionaries: Liveforest is very very powerful on its own, add in any defense or guards and it becomes a nightmare fairly easily. Flux removes any real capacity to work in groups, and ripple is a crippling effect to have. With the advent of these not only being free but also generating power (the constructs that is) it seems time to tone these down to make raids more plausible, especially with distort not punishing raids exponentially.
I'll add bashing disparity (divinus/exco) as another issue, but please note that Estarra specifically stated not to add areas. Also, you'll also have to note that we probably can't change areas, but we can look at planar guards/discretionaries.
Greleag:
I'd like to suggest taking a look at village feelings more than the revolts themselves. There's a reason why 100% of player orgs have a benign government and 2/3rds have a conquest government. It's too difficult to get people into the seriously contested villages frequently enough to influence/do commodity quests for the village in question. You either have to unenemied to the org that owns the village (a status that will not last long if you get caught trying to raise village feelings) or strong enough to deal with statues/guards. Most of the playerbase meets neither qualification.
I'll add village feelings.
Unknown2011-10-10 18:57:42
All caught up.
It seems at this point, we've gathered a significant amount of suggestions, so I'm gonna say that I'll give this topic another day (or two), at least, for people to sneak in whatever else they feel are issues.
We've gotta start chopping things down and opening topics after that.
It seems at this point, we've gathered a significant amount of suggestions, so I'm gonna say that I'll give this topic another day (or two), at least, for people to sneak in whatever else they feel are issues.
We've gotta start chopping things down and opening topics after that.
Unknown2011-10-10 19:22:23
This probably is too broad to discuss but..... economy?
Gold is essentially valueless to people who don't want a manse, clans, cartels, ect., especially since the Credit Market has gone wacky. I know I'm sitting on a pile of about 150,000 gold with nothing to spend it on, especially since I'm hesitant to buy Credits with gold since I have an Elite Membership (I can buy 10 WHOLE CREDITS, or I can wait 30 days and have 125.)
Perhaps we can discuss mob gold drops, corpse turn-in rewards, and goldsinks to try and get the economy under control. Failing that, perhaps make credits/dingbats temporarily purchasable with gold in order to stabilize the market.
Gold is essentially valueless to people who don't want a manse, clans, cartels, ect., especially since the Credit Market has gone wacky. I know I'm sitting on a pile of about 150,000 gold with nothing to spend it on, especially since I'm hesitant to buy Credits with gold since I have an Elite Membership (I can buy 10 WHOLE CREDITS, or I can wait 30 days and have 125.)
Perhaps we can discuss mob gold drops, corpse turn-in rewards, and goldsinks to try and get the economy under control. Failing that, perhaps make credits/dingbats temporarily purchasable with gold in order to stabilize the market.
Enyalida2011-10-10 19:30:49
I agree. For the most part, I find gold to be an amusing collectors item, not useful for anything. After a certain point, where you are only upkeeping your supplies, you lose all use for gold. I don't, however, necessarily support introducing some pain in the ass gold intensive mechanic that you must subscribe to because that will just hurt the youngins more then anyone else.
Sitting on full clans, no trade, and no desire to have a manse whatsoever, I'm just holding out for something I can turn a big profit on (buying rare curios in bulk when they became worthless was great), just to have more gold in case something useful for it comes along.
Sitting on full clans, no trade, and no desire to have a manse whatsoever, I'm just holding out for something I can turn a big profit on (buying rare curios in bulk when they became worthless was great), just to have more gold in case something useful for it comes along.
Rathan2011-10-10 19:33:10
foolofsound:
This probably is too broad to discuss but..... economy?
Gold is essentially valueless to people who don't want a manse, clans, cartels, ect., especially since the Credit Market has gone wacky. I know I'm sitting on a pile of about 150,000 gold with nothing to spend it on, especially since I'm hesitant to buy Credits with gold since I have an Elite Membership (I can buy 10 WHOLE CREDITS, or I can wait 30 days and have 125.)
Perhaps we can discuss mob gold drops, corpse turn-in rewards, and goldsinks to try and get the economy under control. Failing that, perhaps make credits/dingbats temporarily purchasable with gold in order to stabilize the market.
I know this thread isn't supposed to be for solutions, but I wanted to point out the conflict in your post: You claim that gold has no use for people who do not want manses or clans, then suggest that we could perhaps look to fixing it by reducing gold drops and turn ins. In that case, you would indeed have less gold, but it would be less, just as useless gold unless you wanted manses or clans.
A few weeks ago there was a thread about this, and someone summed the problem up well there: Gold is devalued, and the *only* way the problem is going to be fixed is if you create a commodity with gold that people want as much as they want credits. Think, buying dingbat-like artifact tokens with gold type of solution here. You need to create some type of combat or environmental advantage that is comparable in strength to artifacts/blessings, and one that CAN NOT be replicated (at least not more easily) through buying credits or turning gold into credits.
Unknown2011-10-10 19:36:14
Selling casks/crates for gold only would have been a great way to solve that, but I'll add this to the topics.
I admit though, I don't think this is exactly major, since not many people will stop playing Lusternia because they have nothing else to buy.
I admit though, I don't think this is exactly major, since not many people will stop playing Lusternia because they have nothing else to buy.
Enyalida2011-10-10 19:39:04
The idea with slowing drops is to make the problem inflate more slowly while a true solution is found, I think.
Unknown2011-10-10 19:45:35
However, lowing the APPARENT cost of entry by making Credits more reasonable may attract or help retain new players. I have never know anyone who plays a game seriously to not take advantage of micro-transactions at some point, even when Cash currencies are relatively available.
Even at about 6k per credit (where the market WAS when I started playing about7 months 10 months (how time flies) ago), it still would take an unreasonably long time to buy what amount to necessary artifacts, but NOT such an unreasonably long time to get the benefit of credit lessons.
Giving players easier access to a taste of Credit power increases the chance that they will buy some.
Even at about 6k per credit (where the market WAS when I started playing about
Giving players easier access to a taste of Credit power increases the chance that they will buy some.
Unknown2011-10-10 19:47:10
Speaking of attracting/retaining new players, a BASIC server-side system (sufficient for bashing) that can be toggled on/off might make entry into the game less daunting.
Unknown2011-10-10 19:47:38
That's fair.
Re: post right above - do people still think the entry barriers to combat (needing a system, collecting lines, etc) are too high? Or are some afflictions too tricky to reasonably code in (choke, affs that don't give cure lines, uncurable affs, etc), or what.
Re: post right above - do people still think the entry barriers to combat (needing a system, collecting lines, etc) are too high? Or are some afflictions too tricky to reasonably code in (choke, affs that don't give cure lines, uncurable affs, etc), or what.
Rathan2011-10-10 19:48:40
foolofsound:
Giving players easier access to a taste of Credit power increases the chance that they will buy some.
I thought that was the point of IRE's "Log in every day and get 1 free credit, log in 21 days this month and get a SUPER SPECIAL SECRET PRIZE" promotions.
Ssaliss2011-10-10 19:49:01
FirstAid does a pretty good job at that already, at least for me. Wouldn't mind making it even easier though (lazy as I am).
Unknown2011-10-10 19:53:42
Rathan:
I thought that was the point of IRE's "Log in every day and get 1 free credit, log in 21 days this month and get a SUPER SPECIAL SECRET PRIZE" promotions.
It IS, however, making credits more reasonably purchased with gold rewards ambitious players who go out and bash; the same
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FirstAid is definitively helpful, though I feel that it sometimes makes very stupid decisions. Perhaps an auto-sipper at the very least, to help true newbies who are trying to bash anything outside of Newton.
Neos2011-10-10 20:22:01
I don't really think a server side system is needed. For 2-3 years all I used was nexus and some basic triggers and I got up into the 70s. Never aetherhunted, influenced with some crappy aliases, and stuck to what I could handle. I feel a system is only needed for things like fishers, but by then you could just get buy a system like AG or m&m.
Unknown2011-10-10 20:48:28
That 2-3 years to hit 70 is the problem I see. Especially since the game doesn't really begin until level 80 or so; you simply can't access much of the content.
"Sticking to what you can handle" is still a problem at low levels, especially for people right out of Newton who aren't used to having to cure affs and sip mid-battle.
"Sticking to what you can handle" is still a problem at low levels, especially for people right out of Newton who aren't used to having to cure affs and sip mid-battle.
Sidd2011-10-10 20:54:14
foolofsound:
That 2-3 years to hit 70 is the problem I see. Especially since the game doesn't really begin until level 80 or so; you simply can't access much of the content.
"Sticking to what you can handle" is still a problem at low levels, especially for people right out of Newton who aren't used to having to sure affs and sip mid-battle.
Lusternia is the very first mud I've ever played and really the only one I still play, I was able to hunt up to lvl 80 in a matter of weeks, with no prior knowledge about how things work, or coding or a system or anything. It's really a matter of effort to achieve these kind of goals, I didn't start even dipping into combat until I hit level 80 and didn't even get a system for a few months of combat until I hunted up the credits for Treant. I have bought credits, but the majority of artifacts and skills I have, especially in the past year or so, I've gotten in game by just working at it. The point is, it's very possible for people to learn the ropes and basic curing enough to bash pretty easily and achieve stuff without paying RL money for it.